full interview_zoe laughlin_2.mp3
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:00] I'm Zoe Laughlin. I'm an artist, maker, designer, materials engineer. Basically I get up to things with stuff.
Speaker 2 [00:00:13] And there's one thing we have to get out of the way. What is the tyranny of the sponge? Please use that.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:19] Yeah, yeah. When you collect materials and you're in the world of specifying stuff, manufacturers often give you samples of things in the form of a swatch. So it might classically be like little squares of fabric connected on a chain that you can open up and go oh that red or this red, let me hold it up against that. And they're a kind of specification tool but the swatch in the world of making almost dominates as this mode of communicating between manufacturers and I've described there as a tyranny with the swatch right and the tyranny of the swatch is this domination of this as a way of describing material samples this is a way of describing what something's like and saying that's enough that's all you need to know about it this little bit but I mean that's barely enough let alone inspiring. But at the same time the swatch is also kind of sexy and kind of alluring because it's like all the colors and I like that one. Like there is something about it which is seductive. So you're constantly, I find, in this position of wanting it, rejecting it, wanting it rejecting it. And there's an interesting tension but it provides a template for other types of encounters with materials.
Speaker 2 [00:01:40] All along, I thought you were talking about tyranny of the swine.
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:43] Yeah, the swatch, as in the, yeah, there's not swatch like the watch.
Speaker 2 [00:01:46] Swatch like a watch.
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:52] Yeah, but a swatch is samples of things, so you might curtain supplies use them, plastic supplies use them, yeah. Not the wristwatch.
Speaker 2 [00:02:03] I really thought you were like, I don't know what you're trying to do here.
Zoe Laughlin [00:02:11] Many, many things go beyond the swatch, would be one thing. So here the Institute of Making... Yeah, okay, what are we trying to do here? Do you want me to put the question in the answers, I think, that sort of thing as well? We're trying to be many things simultaneously here at the Institute for Making. First and foremost, it's actually to celebrate the relationship between materials and processes and to declare that that is something that is common to many people, many disciplines, many approaches to acts of making, and that the chefs, the engineers, the chemists, the artists, the designers, the technicians have in common stuff and things, and actually that's what should come first, is the materials and the processes. And the knowledges and the disciplines. Will follow and if you're interested you'll get interested in all aspects of it but really we're trying to stand as a place that says we're open to all processes, all materials and all people who also are interested in those things.
Speaker 2 [00:03:21] And how did you come to...
Zoe Laughlin [00:03:24] I'm sorry, okay. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of how to get into it. What I do, I mean, it is a job, but it's not a job. It's a life's work. Like this is an expression of a belief in what the world has done and could do. Like materials and processes are an expression of our humanity and say so much about our civilizations and our creativity and our inventions and about what humans get up to. And the In bringing things together in one space, we're ultimately saying this deserves our attention. And so that can be done in many ways. So in coming in to the point where it became an institute that wasn't just a pipe dream, that had a real space and had people in it that worked for it, it wasn't like that was the ultimate ambition. And how to make it not sound ridiculous. But it's a kind of journey. The institute making as you see it here today is a kind, it looks like an end point, but actually it's work in progress and it's an experiment in and of itself. And it came about through various versions of events and exhibitions and projects and attempts at things where it was like, oh, wouldn't it be good if, and then ultimately it's like, well, here's an opportunity to, and why not? Try to and that actually saying why not within a university context, within an educational context try and make something that doesn't have a course, doesn't have students who sign up to do your curriculum that says if you're here and you're interested you can just become part of this. That first was an experiment but actually ten years later. It's turned into a real thing where you think, well that was a good idea, but at the time it maybe would have been a fool's errand because how are you going to possibly have people, you know, no one might have opened the door and the first week we could have had no one come in, but and someone said, well what would success be, and I thought, well God, I mean some members would be great, and then maybe a thousand members would be amazing, and like in the first year we had three thousand members, and these were people, self-appointed people who decided I want to be part of this, who did our induction. Then come in every day, use the space for whatever it might be. And it's really important that that is a diversity of people, that although we're in an engineering faculty, this isn't for engineers, it's for everyone. And the engineers therefore then will come up against everybody else, and everybody else will come up against everybody, else and realize what we have in common is a passion and an interest for stuff and things and processes and how things are made and what stasis does different things have in the world, like you might find an anthropologist has a particular knowledge of a particular material that an engineer doesn't have, but actually they're both interested in the same material, so an interesting conversation can begin.
Speaker 2 [00:06:28] Is that something engineers need to come up against people who aren't engineers?
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:34] I've taught in engineering departments and I've taught them as someone who's come from an art background and I can remember so clearly thinking, oh my goodness you don't know how to use a saw or you've never held a bit of this in your hands. There's a type of experiential knowledge that I was lucky enough to have through my childhood and through some of my education experiences, that then meant... I had a knowledge of something that wasn't at first glance scientific, but when I developed the vocabulary around it and understood it, then you realize what we're talking about is something scientific. So the engineering student or the engineer as a type of person, we're all engineers actually. It's just have you had a particular training and a particular approach and we're all artists. But again, have you developed a particular training in a particular approach and being allowed to just... Do that and that alone, and I don't know, they're now waffling, but it's more complicated than that and I think engineers can really benefit from realizing that what they do is human and an expression of what humans get up to and that problem solving impulse can require lateral thinking and all sorts of connections that you don't know where the inspiration is going to come from, so why not expose yourself to as many different things as possible.
Speaker 2 [00:07:57] You yourself told us your origin story, not going back to childhood necessarily, but going to art school, realizing it wasn't enough, so we didn't know. No, no. Yeah, just if you could just tell us that, you know, the- Yeah, yeah, yeah. The quick version. Yeah.
Zoe Laughlin [00:08:19] To this day, I can still remember the very arbitrary decisions in a way that you have to make as a child about picking subjects, because I was like, well, that all sounds kind of fun. Why pick one thing over another? And I liked chemistry, I liked art, I like music, I likes English literature, I like lots of things, but you have to pick at some point. And I remember thinking, well why pick one or over another, and I just remember thinking art is the kind of biggest umbrella. Like, somehow it felt like... This was, the art space was a space where all sorts of things might happen that you could frame as art, whereas the science space was like, you need to learn that and then this would be called science and there's a very specific methodology, understandably. And so at that tender age of 16 or whatever, I thought, well, I'll just go with the one with the biggest umbrella. And then going to art college, because it was again the quickest route to making things with the most available tools and equipment, but then discovering that the art college library only has art books felt like a shock, like what? Oh, I thought a library should have everything, because a library, you know, my local town library had lots of different books, my school library had different books. It hadn't occurred to me that the Not relevant, but... Then it was like, well I now need to go away from that art college space into a university system where I'd be exposed to lots of different subjects. And eventually ended up, after doing my degree and a masters at an art college, then did a PhD in material science and engineering because it was about the stuff. Like what role is the material playing in this sculpture I want to make? Or this jacket one would want to make or the things you want to do, the material is a player in that game and I hadn't had that scientific knowledge about what's really happening at the microstructure, what's happening down inside the stuff that means, oh it's bendy! In understanding that, you can start to engineer it and tweak it and change those microstructures to create something even more bendy or less bendy, but you're understanding that there's scope to mess around at that scale as well. But, yeah, so that's really the kind of, I've forgotten how I need to end this point, but...
Speaker 2 [00:10:47] But instead, art school wasn't big enough for your imagination. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, but your imagination was bigger than that. And it went into an area that is not something to be normally talked about again, where it's very specialized. Your sculptor, they'll teach you about marble. But there wasn't enough. It was too constrained.
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:07] I think the art college experience is a very valuable one, but it often can be about the discussion of it as art, whereas there's a bigger discussion about the world, which I was also interested in, and there are other subjects that have got other things to say about the word, and art is an incredibly important discussion at that table, but I was aware that there were lots of seats at the table that weren't there in that college context and I think It's like, let's hear from more than, you know, if we want, let's here from other things. I was just hungry for that.
Speaker 2 [00:11:41] You said you had to pick a subject. Why do we have to pick subjects?
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:48] Yeah, because you've got to say exams, haven't you? I mean, so yeah, in the British system, when you're the last two years of school, you're 16, 17, 18, you take subjects in order to sit the last exams in them, and it's decided that you would pick three or four of them, and you take exams in it. And in and of itself, you can see why it makes sense to do fewer things a bit more, so that you get a bit knowledge about them. But actually you realize within a school, well you've only got so many hours in the day and so many rooms and so much teachers. So I remember you pick that and that, well they clash, they're put on at the same time so you can't go to both shows. You've got to pick which performance you're going to go to because they're on the timetable at the time and oh I'll pick that one then. And so why do you have to pick? Because the adults tell you, you've got to picked something.
Speaker 2 [00:12:41] There's a deeper issue here about the way we teach these subjects, when we think about these subjects.
Zoe Laughlin [00:12:48] Yes. Yeah, because I think there's a huge tradition of essentially a type of education that compartmentalizes things. And so, and, because actually... Humans have found out a huge amount of stuff about the world and to try and work out how to ground someone in giving them some things maybe it's helpful to put all of those types of things in that box and those types things in the other box and then, oh god, you can't know all the boxes so you just stay over there with that box then and you stay over with that other box and it just sort of feels easy but it also leads to a notion that they're separate because we've had to put them somehow for practical terms in something a bit separate and maybe the person who knows that enough to teach it isn't the same person who knows that. So these things end up being pulled apart and separated but that's not the world and that's the reality of what happens in the world when you want to really understand something or when you wanna see connections between things and develop something new that actually to have had some toes in a few boxes might be helpful move from one box into another might be helpful and give you a new perspective on the box you've just left and realize actually, let's stop talking about these boxes now because we've we found a whole new massive box to be in and that's that's much more comfortable and I think this isn't the massive box that allows lots of things just to be there. And I think it is a problem when you're trying to think about developing young people into creative interesting humans. Think, okay, well what do humans get up to? It's a huge range of things, so exposure to that range of thing I think is really important.
Speaker 2 [00:14:38] Is that something that you see? Is the system broken now? Can it be improved? We have the same thing as now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't have the education system, but it's the same idea.
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:49] Yes. I mean subjects exist across cultures as well. This isn't just something that even just the English speaking world, you know, experience. And I think the idea that it's the system that we need to challenge actually and maybe isn't going to be fit for the 21st century is very timely because again we're no longer will one human know all the things in all the boxes. So how do you equip human to move between different And how do you equip someone? To ask interesting questions about things and be able to listen to the answer and build on that answer is perhaps a really useful skill and I think there's a lot of issues that come into education that are to do with subjects that also come from how to test someone, and how to examine it, and it's much easier to just... Say you've either done that thing or haven't done that thing, yes, you've got that right or you haven't got it right, then explore the nuance of, now, what were you thinking here? And how did that, what went wrong? And the failure and the fear that comes through failure is really crippling for some people, because what it means is I won't give something a go and I won't t try it because I might get it wrong or I can't risk not getting a good grade at it, so. I won't do the thing that might be out of my comfort zone. To then make an environment where you can step out of your comfort zone, we're talking about a space where the stakes are very different and very much the game isn't the same game anymore. In fact, you're not even being asked the same question and there's no grade at the end of it. You just toss that away and say, are you interested? Go for it. If you're interested, I'm interested. Let's run with this. But that takes time and it takes compassion and care and you have to give that student that sort of experience. It's harder and it's easier to sort of give a grading type of experience, but many teachers understand that tension.
Speaker 3 [00:16:53] Could you make the point about boxes actually staying hard in science?
Zoe Laughlin [00:16:59] Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. You have all of these boxes and they may be art and it may be science, but also even within there there's sub boxes of, well, is the art box actually in the bigger humanities box? And you'll have music there and then you'll have fine art there, and then when you go to fine art and there's more boxes and they're talking about sculpture here and painting there and it's the sort of people like their territories, but some people like to move between territories. But we have a big tradition of territories. Art and science are these territories, but actually there's a huge amount in common and there's huge amount that each, dismissing it, I can't describe it.
Speaker 2 [00:17:51] What is a working definition of technology? We're doing stuff with AI artists, generative artists, computer artists, using technology. What is a working definition of technology?
Zoe Laughlin [00:18:08] I think you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. I think technology... Yeah, hang on. I won't say how I think. Just get on with the words. Technology is quite a powerful word because it's very evocative, right, and it is often used in conjunction with the word new, actually, like new technology, and that it's driving some sort of force of, again, express something quite human, which is solve these problems, push forward, break down, you know, strive for a place that you can't quite get to but you will have an ambition to try for. But actually, technology, for me, is just the word that describes something that enables something else, really. Like, the most extraordinary technology would be the pencil. Like, what a thing to kind of compose with this, the sheaf of wood and this little shaft of graphite down the middle, and that the graphite itself can be finely tuned to produce lines of different softness. They have different hardnesses of pencil and different darknesses of line. It enables you to do incredible things. It enables to communicate. It enables me to write a love letter. It enables the to draw a picture that moves someone to tears. Or simply like, oh, I've got a quick idea, jot that down. Or I mustn't forget to buy tomatoes. Jot that down, like it's an incredibly enabling technology. But because it isn't new, right, actually we've forgotten it's even a technology. Like that's how powerful the word new is. With technology is that once it's even not quite new anymore, we're even happy to drop the technology word. But I think there is clearly now a way in which technology becomes synonymous with digital as well. And that's, again, we forget that technologies can be analog and not digital, but that the digital is somehow a blob of immaterial stuffness. Like, what do we really mean? You know, these actually become objects of the imagination as well.
Speaker 2 [00:20:23] I mean, I like to tell people, you know, technology, a fork is technology. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you can say something incredibly basic like that. The first half was great, but everybody says it's new. And you gave the example of a pencil and you went off into a lovely poetic, you know, imagination of a pen. Landed on... If you don't realize, a fork is technology, right?
Zoe Laughlin [00:20:46] Yeah. Do you want all the bit before about newness again?
Speaker 2 [00:20:49] You can add a little bit. A little bit, we can use some of it, but we're going to try a little bit again. Okay. And then just kind of land it on the, on the simplicity of like...
Zoe Laughlin [00:20:59] When it comes down to it, technology for me just means something that enables you, actually. It's a device. And that might be something digital, but it also can be something incredibly analog. Like the fork is a technology. That landed enough, two landings.
Speaker 2 [00:21:18] Ha ha!
Speaker 4 [00:21:19] You
Speaker 2 [00:21:22] I'll go back to bringing the pencil, yeah, yeah. But they're all technology that people forget about. And then maybe add all the stuff about people forget they've been around so long.
Speaker 4 [00:21:31] Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 [00:21:35] I would say working definition.
Zoe Laughlin [00:21:40] I guess I'd propose a working definition of technology as something that enables you. So in a way it's a sort of tool. But the word new has become so synonymous with technology that technology now conjures up the kind of the digital and things which are kind of magical, but actually one they're no longer new and the sort of wonder has worn off. It doesn't mean they're any less of a technology, it just means we're used to it.
Speaker 5 [00:22:07] Actually, from the beginning of this, we had some kids who were monsters. Any of them? Yeah. That's pretty cool. Ah, like that, weren't they? Yeah.
Zoe Laughlin [00:22:15] Okay.
Speaker 2 [00:22:19] You don't have to go back and say, you know, you've done with new technology, but... Let's not talk about it in this particular... But X is technology, Y is technology. Fine, fine. This is great. You basically nailed it.
Zoe Laughlin [00:22:36] The pencil is a fantastic enabling technology, the fork is a technology, our shoes are technology. Anything else? Okay.
Speaker 2 [00:22:50] But we forget that they are because they're so familiar. Yes, fine. Fine.
Zoe Laughlin [00:22:55] You know, our shoes are technology, the pencil is an incredible enabling technology, the fork is technology, but we just forget that they are because they're not new and not digital.
Speaker 2 [00:23:13] Okay. So, you mentioned you and Richard were talking and we asked a question about creativity. You said, even though about five minutes ago you said creative, you said you don't like to use that word. So, our subtitle of our series is Art, Science, and Creativity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And I sometimes said there was a discussion the same way where you see the word innovation and you just take out your revolver. But that doesn't mean that the word, innovation, is wrong. So how do you see, it seems to be a very creative place.
Zoe Laughlin [00:23:51] In a way I'd feel very proud and honored if someone described this place as very creative and I think that would be a great way to describe it because it is, it's playful and it's enabling and it's about getting up to stuff and creating things so it is creative. I'm just I'm always mindful of how creative can be loaded with other things that are to do with... That actually can dismiss something as well. I don't know, let me think how to phrase this, because it's about saying, oh, they're just the creative ones. It actually doesn't do service to a creative process that can be highly rigorous and highly focused, ask really searching questions of a process, fail many times and be determined and persistent. You need to be persistent and it doesn't mean you're being always in that moment of like connection and ooo ooo like the ooo might come and a great idea now what is then comes the work and I think to enable the creative spark moment doesn't negate the need for a creative environment that also supports rigor and focus and concentration and persistence and the sort of, the words that are also part of creating, I think. So I think this is a space for creating. Yeah, so it's a home to creative people, very much so.
Speaker 2 [00:25:34] And you mentioned failure.
Zoe Laughlin [00:25:38] It's impossible to underestimate actually the importance of how one negotiates moments of failure within any type of creative process actually. Things are always more complicated than they seem. And when you've finished a thing, it's easy to describe it as like, oh, I did this, and then it ended up being there, isn't that brilliant? Or maybe throw in a little bit of the jeopardy moment where I didn't think it was gonna work, and then we pulled it around and it came out fine. But the reality of being in that moment when it's not working, you have to, at that point, draw on the resources that say... Believe that this is possible or I believe that and although this is failing it's not a failure does that make sense and I think being comfortable with failure is not the same as failing. And so for me, it's like we can fail and things are always failing, but the failure would be to never have even tried it in a way, and to not have given an opportunity to something, or to have just said, no. Yeah, so how to get yourself to a place so you're comfortable with. Constantly failing is actually I don't even think you did I didn't conceive of it as failing It's just like how things go. It's not going quite as you want at that moment. And so it's a kind of mine I remember my grandmother went into a nursing home and she was nearing the end of her life and we really thought, you know, this is it, every few months or so it was like the last call kind of moment, but actually you know she'd rally, she'd really and then it was she'd have to go into her home, she can't live on her own and she didn't want to go into that home. That it was upsetting for everybody concerned. But within three days, two or three days she was like, I'm so pleased I decided to come to this home. I wasn't that good idea of mine. It wasn't her idea at all. And she didn't have a choice but what she'd done was decide that this situation wasn't what she wanted. She'd turned it around for herself and owned it. And that's not about failure, in a way, but it's deciding this isn't going how I want it to go and I'm going to rewrite what's happening. And I realize that's the same thing as your question about failure. But there's something in there which is kind of brilliant. It's like saying, hmm, what's happened here? Okay, I need to reframe this and look for the potential which could be seen as positive. Because if you just see the negative side of it, you might as well just give up. I suppose, and it's like saying this isn't a failure, this is a new opportunity. I mean it's a cliché, but I think it's true because there's many things I can think that didn't go right, but it doesn't mean it was a failure.
Speaker 2 [00:28:52] Although it's only my breath, but no, that was great. So I did wonder if other people will pitch in, give a great chance, but let's do the cello tape. Yes. So we're doing many things here, OK? Give us some examples of things you had.
Zoe Laughlin [00:29:09] There are many things here, and I say things in the broadest possible terms really. There's stuff that's very much, oh yes, that's a piece of wood, that the material, I understand it. But there's also, you know, a chocolate bar, and there's some sugar tubes, oh well that's food, oh yeah that's the material too, oh I get it, I get. There's like some plastic, but there's like a plastic bag, so you see the raw pellets that a factory might use, but then you see the object that we encounter in the world, and there's... Some silica aerogel, sorry, silica, there's some aerogels from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at NASA that when they made it was the lightest solid in the world. It's like a poem of a material made to capture star dust. But then there's also, you know, a bit of a rusty nail. And so everything is kind of wondrous and elevated to being interesting because it's side each other and we'll have some sellotape or Scotch tape as you might call it but Actually it's not just a roll of tape that you might find in the workshop, it's telling a story about how over a period of 50 years sat on a windowsill, it deformed and changed and lost all it's stickiness and isn't sticky anymore, so is it even tape anymore? And so that scotch cellar tape stuff isn't really the object anymore, it is just this material, this new material. Is that enough of memory? I'll try to say that again without the noise.
Speaker 4 [00:30:41] I tried to give...
Zoe Laughlin [00:30:41] I tried to give another version of the same thing.
Speaker 4 [00:30:43] You know
Speaker 3 [00:30:44] I have a quick question, how do art and science come together in the work that you do and the work done here?
Zoe Laughlin [00:30:58] In the work that I do, I'm used to wearing many different hats and I'm used to being in an environment where the most useful hat I can be wearing might be an artist's one or the most usefull hat I could be wearing might be an engineer's one, or oh yes, the science one. And in certain contexts that becomes a shorthand for a type of conversation but actually what the reality is is they come together aren't differentiated in my head and aren't differentiated in my practice. They're just ways of investigating things and different modes and gears to slip into, if that makes sense. Like, I'll just change up a gear and take it in this direction, or then what if it goes down this path? And a project can have many sides to it, right? So the project might be what would be the best spoon in the Like, how? Well, okay, well, what's it going to be made out of? Okay, well now we need to do a science experiment into the properties of what metals taste like. So this now means we're going to need to work with psychologists and we're gonna need to need work with chemists and we are going to develop scientific methods that are repeatable. But also I'm gonna have to do acts of craft and design to make the apparatus, like to make a range of spoons of different materials that can be used in the experiment to be tasted. Safe. The end result of the project will be this set of spoons, but the lenses you can look at it through might be, oh yes, the science of the taste of metals and the reduction potential and how are the atoms behaving and what reactions are happening down at that molecular level, but also what does it mean emotionally and psychologically to put something in your mouth. Is unlike anything else you've ever put in your mouth and what's at play when you're in a restaurant and you're setting that table and you are trying to generate an experience and help someone think again this is not like other experiences I've had, like what are you playing with, what's the theatrical element of it, where's the performance, what's the performance of the person serving the food, what is the performance of the object, how's it asking you to hold it. So I never see things as this bit's the art bit, this bit is the science bit, it's just... All the bits you might need to do to make a great project and therefore what knowledges do you need to draw on or come together or learn yourself that again help the project feel as rounded and multi-dimensional as possible.
Speaker 3 [00:33:32] So when you talk about the tyranny of this watch, which I hugely identify, I wonder does too much choice impede creativity?
Speaker 4 [00:33:44] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 [00:33:47] We've talked to a lot of artists and architects who hate the idea of a blank.
Zoe Laughlin [00:33:54] And do you want me to call back to the swatch business or can I just go, we're now on, no no, this is purely choice.
Speaker 2 [00:34:00] This is kind of the question we have. Do you like to start from nothing?
Zoe Laughlin [00:34:12] There's nothing quite like a juicy creative constraint, right? Why do anything if you can do everything? To have a kind of, all right, this is the rule and the game I'm pushing against. Be it like a hardcore conceptual art structure where you say, I will take a photo every 30 minutes for the next five years of my life. You've set up a system, you let that system play out. In a scientific experiment, you set up the system. These are the parameters, this what I'm changing. We then enact and we roll and we let the thing play out and you see what happens. Bye. That way, that can be very liberating and very interesting and very inspiring and generative of new content, but it's also a way in which you can, as a mode of creativity that enables you to deal with something rather than nothing or anything. The burden of choice can be overwhelming, so why choose one thing and not another? Why to give yourself those creative edges. Helps give form at the end of the day.
Speaker 2 [00:35:19] And it is about giving yourself, I mean, sometimes, I'm even an architect, for example, you know, we're moving on this side of Singapore, and these are the local laws, and you can build X number. So that's the thing. For artists, it seems to be a little bit more self-imposed. I often go to see, I see a play, or I'll see a painting, or some work of art, and I'll go, how did they come up? How did they end up with that idea? It seems to have been because they set some sort of restrictions on it and then it went from there.
Zoe Laughlin [00:35:51] I think there's always a process of devising and then coming up with the thing and that can be helpful to have some constraints in the game of devizing, like what would it be like if we only use this? What would it be like we only used that? Or you're not allowed to do this to it and then in that the job is to really notice what's then interesting because Just to have the rules doesn't mean what's going to come out of it would be interesting. But then to notice, hmm, something interesting's happened here. And so let's try and take that and then do this to it. And you start to develop a language within the project that becomes the language of the work in the end. And I think in a design scenario it's kind of easier because if the problem is... Of this chair, can I sit on it? Or am I falling on the floor? Well I've either made a successful chair because I'm sitting on it or not. But then you say, but is it comfortable? Okay, now it's getting more difficult. But like what's the big idea? What's the main question? If it's like, can i make you cry? Well that's a very different challenge from can I make you... You stand up straight or cannot, but all of these, these are all questions that suddenly you can explode out and become incredibly, can become incredibly complex, but in and of themselves may sound like a simple starting point, but then when you apply a constraint and say I want to make a chair but it's got to be comfortable and it's got to made for £12.99, well suddenly it's really... Toning down, all sorts of choices go out the window. But then that's where it becomes a design project maybe, and you have to involve different questions. And if it was a pure art project, the questions can be different. But it doesn't mean you're not applying the same level of rigor, I think.
Speaker 3 [00:37:47] Can I go back to the bells for a sec? You showed us four bells made out of four different materials, perhaps for four different reasons. What does that mean to a composer or a musician?
Zoe Laughlin [00:38:02] So over the years I've made various objects that are directly within the wheelhouse of stuff that makes sound, right? So bells, tuning forks, bugles, things that are designed to live in the wheel house of music essentially. And what's interesting about them is the kind of different responses you get from people for whom that's their life's work, right, like oh a musician comes in and sees these objects. Actually they can be incredibly powerful because they speak to something they experience every day which is it matters what my instruments made out of like if you were to say the pure physics of it the reason of trombone sounds is because you have a void of air that resonates in the chamber of the trombon and you make it shorter or longer and the notes get higher or lower so it's a bigger or lesser amount of air vibrating but to the person playing the trombone for whom they've been trained for decades and it's really, they know the trombones like well I like a lacquered trombon made of brass with this percentage of copper in and stuff and you're thinking wow I mean does it really make a difference like what is that just is that because I like the look of it or actually it will feel different in the hand it will resonate differently because the chamber, how does that air void? Will start to absorb some of that energy and the bells and the tuning forks and the bugles speak to that experience which is but it it rips it out into something absolutely unquestionable like you ring the lead bell donk donk you ring the blast bell and oh i see the lead absorbs energy and it changes the sound and in fact the note may be the same note But one might be incredibly dull and the other might be incredibly bright. So what we start to talk about is quality. And what is the quality of the sound produced? Not the fact that it's this note, but what's the note like? And I think that's when it's like, yeah, this is about the coming together of the physics of the instrument, the science of the materials, the skill of the player, the piece you want to play. The last post played funeral on a lead bugle, what could be more mournful? Because it is this dull squashed lead sound that's absorbing and taking out all the residents versus the kind of bright chirpy punchy kind of fanfare at the opening of a sort of state occasion on a little brass instrument. You realize that there's a quality to the experience of it. I think I'm a magician, a magician. I think musicians experience that every time they use their instrument but it's something difficult to articulate potentially and is rarely stripped out into an experience of an object that's so stark and suddenly goes whoosh I see the materials at the party as well.
Speaker 2 [00:41:09] We asked you if there's something that you haven't done that you wanted to do, and you gave us an answer.
Zoe Laughlin [00:41:14] Yeah, yeah. It's that one idea, I'm a big believer in like an idea in the back pocket that you always kind of, one day, one day I'll do that and one of those, there are many, but one is I would love to make a glass cymbal. So it could be for a, you know, a drum kit or that kind of percussive cymbals in an orchestra but the idea is that it has two sounds that the composer could write. One is the sound of it ringing because it will have a resonance and it will make a sound, but the other is the sounds of it smashing and that the composer can choose to score the destruction of the instrument and that that sound is allowed within the range of sounds that it can produce.
Speaker 2 [00:41:58] We're going to try to get together with a component. It's going to compose the video. It's very celebrated. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god.
Zoe Laughlin [00:42:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god, this is fantastic. But this is the power of the idea in the back pocket, right? You don't know, but sometimes you throw it out there and someone can be like, I know someone. And before you know it, that idea in the backpocket and that idle what if and that supposition and that kind of like, wouldn't it be brilliant if? Oh my goodness there's a chance this could happen and that's when you've got to like have that courage and know it's not going to be like straightforward and maybe it has to be tweaked into something different but it's like okay hold on to the reins and go for it because it's it's not always easy to take up an opportunity or to I would describe it as like tune that antennae You know, like, have some kind of, like an insect, it's like something starts to quiver, and you're like, hmm, yes, this tastes good, but the proboscis of some kind of insect is like testing something, and, hmm yes, and you like, oh yes, yes. This is going somewhere. And it's that, it's a kind of sense that you can develop, I think.
Speaker 6 [00:43:12] So, you know, I think a lot of people have this idea of the relationship of arts and technology. Technology is the screws and bolts and servo motors, and art is the smooth plastic covering that hides them. And I'm wondering if you have a thought about if you were to remove that cover, are you still left with something that is esthetic and artistic?
Zoe Laughlin [00:43:41] There's a lot wrapped up in there, my god, because it's really easy for people. It's that kind of like art and design as a wrapper for the scientific and engineering content that someone will go, oh here's my invention, now someone else put it in a nice box for me. And I think that's such a wasted opportunity fundamentally because what that's saying is at no point can the person who's maybe primary role might be to think about the box. Maybe the person who's got the box, there's a problem, like if you had just made it slightly longer and slightly thinner, like the things talk to each other so much that you can't really extrapolate the container from what's contained within it. And if you were to take away the wrapper, you're also, you're not suddenly seeing this thing that's had no care and love and attention given to it. Like at all points in this, people are making decisions about, maybe it's entirely practically driven that it will just work quicker if it's shorter there, but maybe actually what we're talking about is an elegant solution where ultimately this piece here needs to, if it was a little bit longer, it would just mean that that bit could be straighter up here, or like there's many decisions which could be described as to do with something that even might just be esthetic, like I'd like to lay this out and take pride in my work and make it look nice and neat. Like there's all sorts of things going on at many scales bit. Are both practical, and esthetic, and creative, and logical, and artistic, and rigorous, and scientific, and logic. All of that can happen in all sorts of aspects of a technology. It's really a misnomer to say the technology is the gubbins and then the art is somehow the wrapper of the gubbins. That's not really helping anyone actually.
Speaker 2 [00:45:42] But then I think, if I'm understanding this correctly, that's kind of what. At least in our world, that's the kind of way people think. I mean, you can't go and look at a circuit board and say, oh, it's so beautiful. I don't know what only to the extent that it's beautiful. But he's saying that there is something about the inside, we don't use the word government, but the inside that is like, it sounds shameful, but it needs to be covered up and made pretty, whereas in fact it might have some esthetic pleasure for just a regular person.
Zoe Laughlin [00:46:14] I think the workings of stuff is not only can be fascinating, it can definitely be beautiful and there's no reason why one has to do an un-esthetic job just because no one's going to see it. Like there's many traditions in architecture and design where you purposely show the workings and put it in transparent housing or put the plumbing on the outside of the building. And how things work and being interested in how things work. Particular element of human curiosity, but also finding beauty in seeing the solution mapped out for you can be interesting to people. It's often an oversimplification to say that the only moment of art and design is the last layer. There's plenty of points along the way where people make esthetic decisions of like, I just think that looks nicer like that and I'll do it like this. So that happens.
Speaker 6 [00:47:12] I just had one more thought to throw your way. So another theme of the show that we're investing in is sort of the part of the human condition to need to create order from chaos. And I couldn't help but notice that you pasted numbers on a lot of things and put things in jars. And I know you're not precious about where things go, but I wonder if you could speak to that idea that drives the kind of. Yeah. Place things in a certain way and just as a follow-up to that, no matter that you did that to the potato, for instance, it's going to change under your feet anyway.
Zoe Laughlin [00:47:49] There's most definitely something in me and probably a lot of the people that is around trying to, you know... A system for yourself that helps things work a bit more easily. Like, be it, you know, sat next to the glass jars, there's a practical reason why it's helpful that they're contained and it's not just like a terrible pile of stuff. Like a sense of order out of what could be chaos does exist, but it's acknowledging that a system can also go too far and locks you in and therefore you're never able to play again because... I can't possibly put that there, it has to go there. Well actually, it might be interesting if it was there. And similarly, in a kind of workshop environment, it's really useful to have a place where your spanners live and that you know you've got your source there and when you finish with it, you put it back there because next time you need it, you know where it is. Generate this structure around it in order for interesting things to happen that don't need to be held up by the good Oh, where's the bloody saw? Where's the saw? I don't know never you know knowing where things are Doesn't mean that you therefore are locked by it It's just sort of practical things and get that kind of out of the way of things I'm confessing a few things here because I've now gone down into the workshop. Sorry
Speaker 2 [00:49:11] One other theme in our show is that technological innovation often leads, proceeds artistic innovation in the sense that somebody will invent something or make something possible technologically from an engineer's perspective. And the artist will get a hold of that and say, we'll take it from here. And we're going to go off and do something artistic. You know, cameras are a good example. Edison invented the movie camera, it didn't really take a lot of use for it. And the artist said, we got this, and now we have a great artist in the 20th century. Is there something that similar that goes on with engineers, where they build on previous innovations and inspires them to, oh, I saw what they did there, but you know what, I can do that. Thank you.
Zoe Laughlin [00:49:57] I mean, engineering is endlessly iterative, like no one's starting from a blank sheet of paper and a standing start. You know, you're building on what has come before and the knowledge that's been generated before. But equally, even in a quick and dirty workshop prototype way, you're drawing on, well, maybe the quickest way we can start that is actually just taking apart that other thing and using the arm from that bit and this, and you're bodging together. Something that expresses where you think you want to go with it, with what you have around you. You know, you just improvise and riff with the stuff you've got in order to get that first idea out. It's a kind of sketching, but with stuff, you know. So I think within engineering that's an important skill because it's a way of thinking, because in doing that you notice and actually could, there's a new idea, it could actually do that better if it was like this. But so rarely is it that blank sheet of paper, you're always iterating and taking something and pushing it forward and thinking actually maybe what if it could be like that. And I think even when something like a technology feels like oh it's invented and that's it. In the use, you're continuously inventing it, because what you're saying is, what if it could be used like this? What if it can be used this way? Actually, in using it like that, wouldn't it be great if it had a little bit on the side that meant it was like that? And things are a sort of evolution of objects, much more than a kind of revolution of objects on the whole.
Speaker 3 [00:51:28] I think we're very...
Speaker 5 [00:51:30] Thank you very much. Thank you for your time.
Zoe Laughlin [00:51:31] Woo hoo hoo hoo!
Speaker 5 [00:51:34] Are you having fun here?
Zoe Laughlin [00:51:41] What do you mean now, are you going home? No, we are not going home. Don't answer that, don't answer.
Speaker 6 [00:51:46] We always have fun.
Zoe Laughlin [00:51:48] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 [00:51:50] Tell us about that, tell us about it.
Zoe Laughlin [00:51:51] Yeah, yeah. When I say, this is about getting up to stuff in here, it's also about enjoying yourself and that feels, in some ways, rather... It's not superficial, because it's actually absolutely not superficial. It's very deep and it's really at the core of good work. If you don't want to do it, when it becomes hard, you're definitely not going to want to do. So if you dont want to even when it's at the early golden phase, then what are you going to do when it gets more difficult? Noticing and recognizing opportunities to enjoy things actually keeps joy in the space and keeps people bouncing off other people's work and saying, oh wow, I love what you've done there, that's so exciting. And when you're like, oh god, and then you see something else happen, that is great. But I actually think it's really important to try and enjoy as much of your working life as possible and we all spend a huge amount of time doing it. So definitely within my team enjoying ourselves and having fun. It sounds very... Sorry, I'm just harking back now to... Again, the word fun can be really loaded for people because it feels like the best fun is not had when you're thinking, let's go and have fun, do you see what I mean? You can force these things, but I think it's just finding and seeing joy and being ready to enjoy it. My dad always says, every day is a holiday, right? And what that really means is... Have that as a state of mind and an attitude to the things you're doing and enjoying those but also it's a state in mind of don't wait for this idea of the mythical holiday that's coming where that's going to be where you have the good time and then now is that like every day's a holiday is like oh why don't we just let's should we just take a moment now and just like should we have let's go have some lunch go on yeah let's have I don't know it's just those small things that oil the wheels of of work and life, I think.
Speaker 2 [00:54:16] It looks like you're having a lot of fun. I have to say, people would love to just, wow, what a great job. But at the same time, you are trying to, and the people here presumably are trying to solve problems, right? I mean, they have challenges that they have created.
Speaker 5 [00:54:29] Different cells or whatever. There's something that they're trying to solve. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Zoe Laughlin [00:54:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we've got one member at the moment. He's building a contraption that I would describe as like a mosquito's recording. There's this one member at the movement who's building contraptions that I will describe as like a recording studio for a mosquito. So the thing he's trying to do is build a little house that a single mosquito could go into and he can record the sound it makes. But the reason he's doing that is because he. Building on this piece of research that is trying to differentiate the mosquitoes sound different when they are carrying malaria or not. Therefore could you build a device that listens at the window to say whether a mosquito with malaria has flown in or something. Ultimately it's this extraordinary worthwhile noble ambition that is quite a serious project if you really think about the implications of it But at the same time, there's a lot of fun, and it's like... Oh yeah, the Mosquito recording studio and like, you know, he's enjoying in the moment trying to make the thing and other people are curious about it and we'll have conversations about what material should you make out of that could best absorb the sound and actually why don't you use these types of bolts because they vibrate less and like there's practical decisions that are sort of day-to-day stuff about getting the thing done but there's also enjoying the sort of... The mildly bonkers thing about it and that he's constantly aware, yeah it might not work, it might work, but yeah, it'd be great, let's try it, I'd love to know, how is he going to know? So let's just try it. And so that's the enjoyment, but also that sort of sense in which this is a worthwhile thing that requires problem solving and requires a type of engineering hat that understands what, let us work our way through these problems And think both systematically but also let's think creatively here like what else how else could we do this maybe it shouldn't be a box at all maybe what they need to be in is a sphere because the problem of the corners has been that you know that actually how do we make a sphere recording studio well there's some balloons over there what if we take one of it and it's those sorts of things where you see something and then think like it's not working there I'm going to go down here. I've gone off the topic of the question. So he was one who can't come today, but would have been great to. He's up for doing a Zoom or another time or whatever, but he's, he is initially an engineer and now is within the biochemical engineering and the infectious diseases control group. So he's surrounded by essentially medics and biologists. Okay, so I just want to give you the reason I'm asking. Sorry, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 [00:57:20] The reason I'm asking is just to practice that, just as a member, and he was building a mosquito party studio, and then it was like, we call it burying the lead, and it's like, really, it's a detective area, it was, like, whoa! So we have somebody here who's working in tropical diseases, and has a background in engine, yeah. And he's trying to build something for mosquitoes, just to save that. Yeah, okay, fine.
Zoe Laughlin [00:57:45] We have a member here who's working in the Department of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. So he's surrounded by medics and chemists and biologists, but he has a background in design and engineering, and he's trying to make a device that's essentially a recording studio for mosquitoes. He wants to put a single mosquito in a box and listen to the sound it makes, because they have this idea that maybe mosquitoes that carry malaria. Actually sound different to the mosquitoes that aren't carrying malaria. So the ultimate goal would be, can you build a...
Speaker 3 [00:58:19] Last question, with our television audience in mind, give us a brief explanation or a brief definition of material science and how it relates to art.
Zoe Laughlin [00:58:42] I'm just trying to think of the first three words that don't trip me up, do you know what I mean? Material science, in some respects, is a combination of a few different disciplines within the kind of scientific field. But what it really is, it's about investigating the properties and behavior of stuff and understanding why things are like what they're like. And when I say materials, I sort of mean everything that is an inanimate blob in the world, be it a piece of metal or wood or rubber. Chocolate, like this stuff, these materials have properties and those properties are because of structures inside them. And material science is really saying, what are those structures? How do those structures behave that then give this stuff this property? So what's going down inside steel that means we can make girders from it? And can we tweak it so that the girders could be smaller but just as strong, so you use less material in the building, but like how can the material science... Engineer inside the stuff to give it that sort of property. Was that fair enough? I mean, does that make succinct enough?
Speaker 2 [00:59:59] So I have one question, and then we'll move on to our last question, which is that we think nothing, and I say we, you know, the world we live in. Oh, she's an artist, she created. People don't think engineers, they don't talk about engineering, but engineers in the same way. Yes. I have a feeling you have a different perspective.
Zoe Laughlin [01:00:22] Yeah, yeah. I think, you're right, people often assume that creativity... Is the domain of a certain group of people who live in a certain box and that box is often kind of given an art label, right? But actually that's not true. Humans are creative and engineers have to be creative all the time. They have to solve problems in unusual and interesting ways that get you to places you never thought you were going to be able to get to. Like what's more creative than getting to somewhere that has been impossible. It's also true though that both the artist and the scientist need to know when to dial it back and just do the work and just complete it to this point and then assess, is this going where we want it to go. It's not a sort of spontaneous eruption of genius moment, how did this happen? Like in both the more traditionally understood as creative disciplines and as in with engineering. Art has a lot in common with engineering when it comes to... Let's pay attention here, what's going on? Either is it solving the problem I want it to solve? Be that the problem of could we have a sculpture that looked like it was floating at an impossible angle? Or could we engineer something to take someone to the moon? Like it's either gonna be doing the thing I hoped it would do, or it wouldn't, but there comes a point where it's... I have to make some quite clinical decisions about which one I think is going to be a better route to go down and make those rational thoughts about I'm going to pick this one because it's working better and it might be it's working better because the numbers prove it or I just think it like I suppose what I'm trying to also come around is that within engineering there's also a sense of intuition that can come into play that is about the hunch and then what if we try that and it's like it comes on this impetus to like this creative impetus that's like, I've just got a feeling that could be good. Let's try it.
full interview_zoe laughlin_27.mp4
Speaker 1 [00:00:02] So talk a little bit about the role of materials. Let the lower rolling in there.
Speaker 2 [00:00:10] So we're rolling, and let me know when we're done.
Speaker 1 [00:00:18] So talk about the role of materials in making art, traditional making versus cutting edge technology, how different artists use materials and the importance of that.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:34] For many artists, the material is central to what they do. I mean, some artists make work that is immaterial, and is ideas driven, and how it renders into the world could be multifarious, and the material itself isn't the be all and end all. And other artists, it's all about the material, and the material comes first. So you could look at something like a craft practice that's entirely driven about an exploration of a material to someone who... Actually is interested in the poetics of it and how a material behaves, brings something new to the work. So yeah, artists use materials in many, many ways.
Speaker 1 [00:01:13] And you've talked about the various components in making how design, technology, history, philosophy, art, engineering will come together. Would you give us one of those statements?
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:27] Say that again, sorry. You want me to say that it comes together in materials, or you want...
Speaker 1 [00:01:33] Yeah, how materials, using materials combines all of these main disciplines.
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:42] Materials don't exist in one place, in one discipline, in one conversation. They're part of many. And so it's a place where the art, craft, design, technology, the cooking. Let me start again. Do you want cooking in there? Because I remembered you had a chef. You had a Chef. That's why I suddenly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I realized the grammar wasn't right. But one of the things I love about materials is they don't exist in one discipline under one, one of things I like about materials is that they don't belong to one type of practice or one discipline. It's a place where many things come together. It's the place where things come to together. The art, craft, design, technology, science, engineering, cookery, everything is in materials. If you're interested in materials, you're interest in all of those things. Let me try another way round which is, engineering, craft, technology, art, design, cookery. They all have at their heart a manipulation of materials.
Speaker 1 [00:02:50] So we're doing a story about the importance of play, and that is something that you talked about, the importance play in bringing art and science together, the important of play in terms of learning.
Zoe Laughlin [00:03:11] Difficult to over egg how important play is or at least underestimate how important it is because for me play is one of those difficult things to describe difficult things to engineer to happen but when you're doing it is crucial to any project like it's the fiddling around giving something a go getting up to things that spirit of exploration that comes when you are playing that enables you to try something with very low stakes and maybe take something to the brink, break things, make things. Fiddle about, and then have ideas and generate content without feeling like we're doing a project. Can you hear them talking? I can.
Speaker 2 [00:03:54] Sorry, very, very funny. We're good. I had a question, and now it's all clear. OK. I couldn't see from here a little bit. Sorry about that.
Speaker 1 [00:04:03] So the sound on that is right here?
Speaker 2 [00:04:04] We can use it, we can use, but it's off-use.
Speaker 4 [00:04:06] Okay.
Speaker 1 [00:04:09] You want to tell us about the beginnings of the glass symbol story? Yeah. I was having an idea in my back pocket.
Zoe Laughlin [00:04:17] Do you want me to do it as if I haven't done it before?
Speaker 5 [00:04:22] Well, I'm sorry. Let's think about that for a second. She's here in Todd's studio, dressed a particular way.
Speaker 1 [00:04:29] Yes, I know, but we may need it or want it as voiceover. There's a method to my madness. Okay, all right.
Zoe Laughlin [00:04:40] I'm a big believer in having an idea in your back pocket, and what I mean by that is having something that you're kind of always thinking about at the edge of your, no, you're not always thinking of. I'm big believer of having an ideas in your pocket, what I meant by that was having something that if someone says to you, what are you going to do next, actually you might not be doing this next but you can whip it out and you can talk about it and it just lives with you for years probably as something you would like to do Bye! You don't know when you're gonna do it next. And something that's been in my back pocket for a good 15 years now is the idea of making a glass symbol. And I can remember really clearly when I first had this idea. I was finishing up my PhD and I'd made a whole series of objects that were about different properties of materials, sound, taste. And in the sound set, there was tuning forks, there were bells, there were bugles. And I thought, well, the next. What's the next thing I'd want to make in that series and it would be this glass symbol. But the glass symbol became an idea which lived in my back pocket and grew in my imagination. It became a piece of conceptual work which I had thought through quite strongly, but also something that I knew could go in many different directions because the minute it became real, I'd have to let it go somehow. But it was an idea in my pocket because it was the thing that I would want to next if someone said, oh I've got... What would you want to do? You could do anything. Oh, this. I mean, I've got a few of them, but that's one of them.
Speaker 1 [00:06:11] How has this experience been for you? What have you learned up till now?
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:20] This whole process of, again, how much do you want me to...
Speaker 1 [00:06:28] This is before you hear. Yeah.
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:30] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we haven't, this is not at the end, but this is at the beginning, like Todd was, yeah, yeah. Like Todd was, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 [00:06:35] I've got a couple of questions. I know where Marion's going and I've a couple questions to add when Marion's finished. Yes, this is back in the night before.
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Todd was when you interviewed him earlier. This has been one hell of a ride, actually, because there's been something about... The becoming real of something that's existed in my head for over a decade that's been really interesting to observe in myself. I've had to let go of a few things I've have to share some things that you know, I thought it was going to be one way and maybe it's not and that's fine but I just notice in myself an experience of thinking hmm, I've been Composing, actually. Thinking about how Todd talks about things as a composer, he would be sitting on something for a long time, thinking about it for a very long time. The idea of him composing a work entirely in his imagination and then somehow rendering it onto paper and it being real and then passing it over to a group of people to play, I feel like there's a parallel to the process I've gone through, which is there's been this thing in my imagination for a really long time and there's this work I wanted to make that... Had a concept behind it and an idea embedded in it, but also an imagined physicality to it. And so in it becoming real, it's been a process of designing and working with Michael as a fabricator to say, like, what does this thing want to be in reality and what's possible to make and what isn't possible to makes and what is possible for glass to do and glass not to do. But then, like, holding on to the parameters. And setting down like, no, this is a symbol and this is the symbol that's going to be broken. Didn't want it to move too far away from it being something that didn't look like a symbol anymore and like it could have gone in many different directions but there was like some parameters I really wanted us to hold on to because this wasn't about making an orchestra a glass orchestra or it was about a glass symbol and I think that part of me had to allow the other people in the room to bring something to the table not allow like I was ever gonna not allow it, but just in my imagination. Allow myself to let go of something that I had imagined and embrace what it was becoming. And then when I've watched each person respond to it, for me, that's been the work, if that makes sense. Like one piece of the work is what will happen the night of the performance. And the symbol is made to be broken. This is really clear for me. And this is a very important part of the word. But another part of work.
Speaker 2 [00:09:21] Excuse me sorry you guys if you keep it we see that and so when you started doing it that so could we just maybe just turn it off then we don't risk it going off awesome thank you
Speaker 6 [00:09:37] wedding.
Speaker 2 [00:09:38] Yeah. Go over something before you go.
Zoe Laughlin [00:09:41] I want to finish the thought about what was I saying now, I've completely forgotten.
Speaker 6 [00:09:47] It's the last thing you said was it's... Sorry to interrupt like that. That it's going to be broken.
Zoe Laughlin [00:09:54] Oh no, I remember what I was going to say. So yeah, a very important part of the work is that this symbol is made to be broken and that this will be enacted. But another, for me, important part of the piece is seeing how somebody who's embedded in sound has responded to it. And like, making something, you know, if we consider this symbol a sculpture, this has had a very profound effect on Todd. And it's been really interesting to watch him respond to it And for me, that's been part of the work. Part of the works is to make an object, to conceive an object. Have the object made and present it to somebody who will now make an interpretation of it. And one of the rules in place is, you need to interpret this to the point of breaking. But to see him take that and have an effect on him, for me is really one of surprising aspects of this project. But something for me that's made it feel like, yeah, that's a success for me because it's making him feel something. This is an object that requires an enactment. It requires, it is performative. It doesn't live until it's playing. But for me, it doesn't leave until it playing to the point of breaking. And living on that brink point is where you start to know something new about the material. And watching the object and performer relationship has been amazing. And what I'm really looking forward to is the object performer audience relationship is gonna be a new thing again. Yeah, it's very exciting.
Speaker 2 [00:11:31] Mr. Day. Can I just pull you closer to the camera? If you stand up, I'll move you. Thank you. Here we go, and if you sit to this side. Perfect, thank you. Is that fair? Yep.
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:46] You should go back to the idea of letting go of something.
Speaker 1 [00:11:49] Yes, you had started to say something about having to have this idea all your life.
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:55] Yeah, yeah, I think it's not letting go in a kind of really dramatic sense but it's acknowledging inside yourself that when you're making something even if I was making something on my own not in collaboration you have to let go of what's in your head sometimes and respond to what happens in front of you and notice things and follow what you're noticing but then when you are doing it in collaboration with others again there's another layer of what are they noticing and you need to listen to that and you need to respond to that, and maybe... That's more important than what you noticed. And you need to surrender certain things and to properly collaborate and for something to go somewhere new, I think you have to be prepared to let go sometimes.
Speaker 1 [00:12:38] So you walked in here yesterday, and for the first time, you saw these three object of your dreams on stands. What did you feel? What was going on in here?
Zoe Laughlin [00:12:52] There's two strong, almost conflicting emotions. One is, oh my god, wow. When you first start. Oh yeah, sorry, sorry. Yeah, sorry sorry. First, walking into Todd's barn and seeing those three symbols set up on the stands, I actually had two, not conflicting, but two different emotions simultaneously. One was like, oh my God, wow, they're amazing, beautiful, special, the whole atmosphere, the set up. You know, there was a beauty in what they looked like. And there was an excitement to see rendered physical, something that's lived in my head for so long. But there was also a kind of like... That's not it. That's... That's just... The object. That is not... That's potential, I think that's what I mean. I saw potential for what it would be and I think what it will be is the thing I'm most interested in, which is what happens when it's played, when it is used, when it taken to the brink. So when it stood there, it's a bit like. I don't want to sort of fetishize it, if that makes sense. I don't want it to be like, ah, the glass symbol, the class symbol. That's a tool, that's an object, that's a thing that's asking you to do something. And that's what's exciting. It's like demanding an enactment. So I'm looking at it with a sense of potential and readiness to really bring it to life, I think, through doing something with it, yeah. And watching it go past the point of no return. That's gonna be the moment for me.
Speaker 1 [00:14:33] And as you think about that moment 24 hours from now, the single word, as you think about tomorrow.
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:41] Yes. That's the single word. Maybe not a single word
Speaker 1 [00:14:49] No, what's your...
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 [00:14:53] Distill your can you distill your anticipation about tomorrow?
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:59] I'm ready. Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1 [00:15:03] Tomorrow. I think about tomorrow.
Zoe Laughlin [00:15:04] Oh, you want that, I was thinking about one word. I'm trying to give you like one word moment. No, okay, tomorrow, blah, blah blah, okay. If I think about tomorrow's upcoming performance, I'm ready, like that symbol is ready. It's heavily pregnant, ready, expecting. Oh, no, that's not the wrong analogy. The, yeah. I think, about tomorrow performance, I think for me. That's the moment the cymbal's really gonna live its best life. Like, I'm ready to see it do its thing.
Speaker 5 [00:15:45] So I know you were listening to Todd from up there. So you started talking about the symbol, and he was crying. You should look at Mary. Oh, sorry. Why don't you look at Louis now? No, no, no. Actually, I wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine. Just simply. I know he can handle it. What's going on there? I think I know that he was affected by it. I was sort of overwhelmed. It was sort pointy. He was overwhelmed by his emotion at this thing that's been created.
Zoe Laughlin [00:16:15] Yeah, Todd being so moved is for me one of the. Very special things about this project because it shows it really means something and it means something to both of us in different ways. But to see that he's connected with that object and as a performer he's going to care about what he does, I couldn't wish for anything better really. Yeah. And listening to him talk about the work, I realized that in an interesting way. In some ways, I'm the composer here, and he's the musician now. He's the performer of a piece of work that I've composed, that he's now breathing life into. And there isn't a score, there's a conversation, but there's score in terms of it's a glass symbol you take to breaking over five minutes. It's a very limited score for a set of parameters within which he'll perform. But it will be... Yeah, something that he breathes the life into. And so to see that he's connected a bit so strongly and it resonates for him emotionally I think is very powerful.
Speaker 5 [00:17:28] It's interesting comparing the two of listening to what you said in this interview and what he said. It seems to me that for you, the symbol, its power includes its breaking, right, as part of it. For you, that makes it complete. That's shadow, or when it's pushed beyond limits. But for Todd, he also cried when he talked about his cello, which has been part of his life for his entire life. So for him... It's not about the breaking He has a different agenda It means something different It's interesting that the two of you are agreeing with each other
Zoe Laughlin [00:18:06] Sorry, I'm looking at it again. Yeah, I think he obviously has very particular relationships to his instruments. And I suppose, for me, I've thought of the symbol in terms of an object, a sculpture, a demonstration, a piece of apparatus, it's a piece of conceptual art, it a piece of material science, it many things in one object. But for me it's not an instrument because I'm not the player, right? For him it's his instrument, and it's an instrument. Demonstrate something about what he's found in it I think and that's really beautiful to watch him find something in it and to care about it.
Speaker 1 [00:18:58] So what if it doesn't break?
Zoe Laughlin [00:19:06] I mean we've not made an unbreakable cymbal so there's no, for me there's no opportunity for this not to break on the night because it just means he has to keep playing more. You play till it is breaking, like he can't stop any other way. If he plays it and he becomes so overcome and he can't do it, that's a different thing. And that means like, he can do it. Okay, he cant do it Someone else needs to play it then.
Speaker 1 [00:19:42] He was making some notes, he seems to be calling it, taken to the limit.
Zoe Laughlin [00:19:50] I think that's the point, you have to cross the finishing line, otherwise you haven't finished the race. You can be an extremely respected person who pulls up with an injury, it's not like we're judging you for not finishing the race, but you haven't t finished the racing if you don't cross that finishing line. And in this case, the braking, I think, is when you cross that line. You have to across the line.
Speaker 6 [00:20:18] Thank you.
Speaker 4 [00:20:19] The only thing I just wanted to bring one thing back to you, because you talk a lot about it, but do materials talk to you? Do they give you sort of a sense of what they are? I mean, I realize that I don't want to fetishize it either.
Zoe Laughlin [00:20:40] No, no, no. No, but I think... You're describing to me is, there's definitely a sense in which materials... Have an agency is, I don't mean to get hippy on this, this is not spiritual, this is not anything other than about noticing things, and having a sensibility that comes through experiencing the world, and paying attention to stuff, really, and once you start paying attention to things, you get a feedback from it, and you're like, oh, that's interesting, when it does this, this happens. Todd is paying very close attention to those symbols, so he's starting to notice something and they're starting to talk back to him and tell him, well, they're telling him what it wants to do and what, you know, he's trying to do something with it and it's going, no, no. So materials talk to you in the sense of, they will reveal what they do or don't want to do if you pay attention to them and engage with them in a meaningful way.
Speaker 1 [00:21:49] There's a whole generations of work, but there's a whole group of artists now who are looking at art through materials in many ways their forebears did except they weren't making art they were making things that kept them warm or that responded to a household need and People stand back in the single, that's not art, that just... Mm, mm. So, what do you think about materials, art, crap?
Zoe Laughlin [00:22:23] Mm-hmm. I think one of the wonderful things about materials is you can look at them from many different points of view and with many different lenses and you know I might look at some butter and think about where's the bread and someone else might think oh, last time I go in Paris, who knows? Like you have different things that you bring to materials that are to do with your life experience and you may have been somebody who grew up in a household where they only used olive oil and you're not used to fat in solid form so butter is think exotic and... Well, you know, there's every material people bring their own perspectives to, but also then there's cultural resonances and layers, and you might work with sugar and actually be interested in sugar's relationship to slavery, and, or you might be interested in sugar relationship to obesity, or you may be simply counting calorific value as a unit of space and time, and I'm making things with cubes because I'm interested in the cube in relation to modern art as a form. Like. There's many reasons why people might pick a material, and it could be because of meaning they bring to it, but it could because of it's the right thing for the job and the job is I need to be able to stand on it. You know, then that limits it again. Or I want to stand it, but I want it to then, I want a sink into it. Like what material you're gonna pick then. Like you're picking it for effect, you're pick it for meaning, you're picking it because it's all you've got. Like there's lots of reasons why people might work with different materials. I try not to judge, because I think it's very easy to dismiss certain materials because of, oh, that's a material that's not a serious art material, or that's material for this use, it's not for that use. I think if you look at the world of craft, often what happens there is people get sort slightly looked down upon because what they've done is a light on a material with a particular meaning to it and they're sticking with it. Or they're particularly interested in a particular functional form. But actually the boundaries of where materials can exist and what they get up to is very broad and I don't think you have to sort of say, oh yeah, that's a good use of a material and that's not a good of a use of the material. You've got to be more sophisticated than that. It might not be what you're after but It's just what came to mind.
Speaker 6 [00:24:47] That's great.
Zoe Laughlin [00:24:50] Can I talk about the other end of the spectrum or something else as well, which is there's a definite trend? There's definitely, you see also kind of material trends, like some piece of work, someone gets into ceramics, then lots of people are into ceramicks. And these things, this is normal cycles of fashion, but also technology comes into play, like a new tool enables something, a new material is born, like smart materials are the new thing. But actually, for me, all materials are smart. It's just, you're not asking the right questions of them if you don't understand what's smart about butter as opposed to aerogels. Like There's something in everything, you've just got to interrogate it.
