full interview_tod machover_21.mp4
Speaker 1 [00:00:01] So tell us, where are we in the process and how do you feel about today?
Tod Machover [00:00:07] So today is what we're about five weeks from performance. And today's pretty exciting because we've been working for the last while on the idea of a glass symbol and the characteristics of a class symbol. Zoe and I have been talking about this concept for a year, whatever. Michael joined the project four or five months ago, and so today Michael arrived with two smaller versions of the symbol we've been talking about, and he managed to fly with them from Rochester without them coming, ending up here in pieces. And when we met, it was just a week ago or maybe 10 days ago. We had talked about how to get variety out of these symbols and the idea is to print them in layers, three layers in this case. And I think Zoe had the idea, we all talked about it, it was Zoe's idea to try two configurations. One quite geometric and regular where in principle the parts of the symbol that sounded quite different would be really easily recognizable. Kind of like a keyboard, but you know, a rectangular patch and a rectangular patch with bumps and dots and another one where the configuration was quite a bit more fluid. And we'd actually had a discussion last time about how there are different ways of designing an instrument like a piano keyboard. Everything's regular, spaced the same throughout the whole range of the piano, an instrument like a a symbol of the kind of middle European instrument where you play a bunch of strings with things that look like forks. It turns out if you if you design that with the notes in chromatic order like on a piano the instrument would be way too big and unplayable. So they're actually designed according to the intervals you're most likely to play and they all overlap and it's easier to play like that. So the second symbol was designed with that in mind that it's actually the way I like to think of instruments if you have these different areas which kind of run one into another. So anyway, the first thing about today is Michael arrived with these things and sure enough, these symbols look exactly like the designs. I mean, I was really surprised. I figured, you know, by the time they got. Manufactured and the layers put on, I figured it just wouldn't be as precise or the, you know, you couldn't tell. But they really look exactly like what Zoe sketched on paper. So that was really exciting. They arrived intact, they're quite solid, and that's what we're dealing with now. They're very solid. So, you now, the last time we actually, the last I played with resonating glass was when we were all in London in, I think it was October, we're now at the end of April. And that's the time when we had access to all the real symbols and then to all kinds of glass. And, you know, it was pretty clear that the more delicate the glass, the finer the stem was, the easier it was to make them resonate. You know, they resonated longer and even with a delicate glass. The sound just was quite different if you moved from where the stem was to the edge to the top and actually hitting two delegate glasses together made really interesting sounds. And I didn't know what to expect with these cymbals, but I think they actually sound quite good if you hit them pretty hard, but they don't resonate as long as I expected them to and they also don't have quite as much variety as I expect them to. The all of the extra layers that create these beautiful patterns and make a lot of sense. Rather than kind of opening up the resonance, they seem to dampen them. So they resonate quite nicely if you hit them on the edge and if you get the areas that only have one layer. They just don't sound as open when you hit the other areas. The bumps and ridges, actually the one thing that was a nice surprise with these symbols is that they were molded from regular symbols. And so the glass surface has similar kind of concentric ridges to what you'd find on a brass cymbal. That's actually really nice, because if you drag your fingers or a drumstick just along the surface, you get a nice kind of gritty sound, bumpy sound, and you can kind of stir it. It sounds very beautiful. But the intentional bumps and ridges that were made in the glass printing. Because they're buried between, they're usually in the second layer so that they're covered over on the bottom layer and the top layer. So it's kind of a little bubble in between. At least in this version, they just don't resonate. So it doesn't sound different when there's a little bubbles.
Speaker 1 [00:05:22] So is it, can you say it's a little disappointing? Can you use that word? How do you feel about this? This is part of the process as you know from us.
Tod Machover [00:05:32] Yeah, totally. So to be honest, I'm not so surprised because the first time we got a real symbol made out of glass, you know, the last few meetings that we had on Zoom, Michael was in Rochester banging the glass through Zoom. You know, I knew that we couldn't really hear exactly what they sounded like, and it sounded a little dull through Zoom, So, I am, let's say, if we have to make the concert tomorrow... I would be concerned about, I mean, I've made all kinds of concerts over the years. We could use these cymbals and do something terrific, but I think we do need to figure out how to make them more resonant and more varied. And there are different ways of doing that. It could be that, you know, these are, I think, 14 inches and we're, the final version would be maybe 26 inches. It's probably larger enough that... The thickness, I think will, these feel thick. And hopefully when it's spread out like a pizza dough, just the extra volume will make it feel thinner, which means hopefully it'll be more varied and more resonant. I'm not 100% sure that this layered approach with these bumps and different textures. Is ever going to work exactly the right way, you know, my intuition is that... I would probably make the bumps more exaggerated and the ridges more exaggerated, maybe even cut them through so you could, you know, something like that, or make more sound out of those. And I was speaking to one of the postdoctoral students in my group today, and she happens to be an acoustics expert. She works on the way that you design buildings to create emotional response, especially religious buildings. And I just said, you know, she came in and said, oh my God, they're gorgeous. How do they sound? I said, well, they sound pretty good, but they're a little dead. And she looked at them and said... First of all, she had some colleagues at University of Michigan where she got her PhD who had been working on resonating glass objects. And she, in fact, sent me a paper from them and I'll send it to all of you and to Michael and Zoe just so we can think a little bit. But she said her impression was that... Most resonating glass objects aren't quite as flat as this and they tend to be a bit more curved or maybe a lot more curved and sure enough I looked up that Michigan work and they were, they're almost like balloons made or pillows made out of glass, so they had air inside and then, you know, the air resonates and then they have the leisure of developing different materials of glass to make them deader or more alive. So, you know, We're only five weeks from the performance, it takes time to make these, it costs money to make these prototypes. We know we can't make, you know, many more, so um... I think we have to make a couple of bold decisions, probably tomorrow, you know, it's the end of the day today. I know Michael's going to be doing some waterjet printing tomorrow, laser cutting, I'll be around all day, I'm going to think tonight. And yeah, my guess is we want to exaggerate the surface deformations. I don't know, maybe we want it to go even bigger than 26 inches. It feels like. The one thing I was disappointed in, and I'm a little surprised at, is that, you know, I thought that the big advantage of glass printing was the variety that you could get and maybe a certain control over the glass that you can't get any other way. And these symbols just feel thick to me. And I gather from what Michael said is you just can't print anything thinner than that. So, I'll ask him again, you know, whether there's anything to do just to... Compress it or... Think that's probably what's making it not resonate so much. Well, I think I think what's unusual with this project is that Because these physical objects take a long time to make and because Zoe's the designer, but she's not fabricating them and Michael's yet somewhere else, we haven't been able to make so many and try them. So I think we haven't been able to iterate with real stuff, considering we're doing something that nobody's ever done before. We did try. Resonating and breaking all kinds of different glass in Zoe's lab in October, but we haven't and I think we all felt at that time that what a range, you know, incredible possibility and, you know delicate, hard, you, know the breakability. There was just a huge amount of drama there and until today we haven t had a chance to touch or resonate other glass. So... That's just the way this process has been, it's a bit unusual, and we can't make a lot of iterations now, so we've learned a lot. And you know, we're smart people, I think we'll be able to make a couple of twists to make this, I'm not worried, maybe a little disappointed, but I'm worried we'll come with something really interesting.
Speaker 1 [00:11:09] It just seems to be part of the creative process. I mean, today it's symbols, but it could be something else, right?
Tod Machover [00:11:14] Yeah, and you know, I do think that it's, at least for the way I work, it's quite par for the course to have an image. Maybe at the first rehearsal or at some part in the process, the musicians come in for the first time and it's like, oh, it sounds, you know, that's, what did I do wrong? You know, it's too, often with my work, since it's fairly complex, maybe it sounds like mud, you know like, oh, all the stuff I put in there, it's not clear. And I usually get kind of upset after the first rehearsal or two and then. And then it kind of goes back and forth. It gets better, and then there's a, again, you know, but it always gets there. And I think, you now, I think the one thing, besides the resonance, the one that we really do want to solve with these symbols is that from the very beginning, Zoe's original idea was the combination between a symbol, which you think of as kind of indestructible, pound it, and makes this resonance out and turn it into something which is incredibly fragile. These things aren't fragile enough yet. So the whole story of something which you're going to push to the edge and pull back and push to edge and finally I think we just have to, if that isn't clear and if you need a sledgehammer to break this, it's probably not the right story. But I think we all saw that today, and one way or another we'll get there.
Speaker 1 [00:13:01] I'm good. Anybody else? Do you want to just take one and hold it like it's your baby?
Tod Machover [00:13:11] That's easy.
Speaker 1 [00:13:12] A baby you have no time.
Tod Machover [00:13:13] A baby what?
Speaker 1 [00:13:14] Maybe you have notes on. Notes on. Maybe not your baby yet. Tell us how, when you look at it, what are you feeling when you're looking at it?
Tod Machover [00:13:30] I love the pattern, I love this shape. It's incredible how different it is in different light and, you know, there's certain, like right now looking at the back of it, it's getting dark outside and we've turned the lights down a bit here. But because it's shiny on the back, all of the complexity, you can't see it from sitting but from where I'm sitting. You can see all the different contour on the back, both in the major pattern, but also all the subtle little. I don't want to say imperfections, but complexities, which I love. Right now in this light, looking at the front, it looks flat. It doesn't have that same complexity and beauty to it, so to me it looks matte and kind of... So I think... I think the light, I think they're incredibly variable, which probably is nice, probably also something to play with. It doesn't always look the same. The light changes, the angle changes it. I personally wish they were lighter. You know, it's heavy. I want it to be like half as thin. How could you, like sandpaper, you couldn't like sand off.
Speaker 1 [00:15:10] Rub it, rub it, Rub it.
Tod Machover [00:15:12] Is there anything with glass that would do that?
Speaker 3 [00:15:15] I think so.
Tod Machover [00:15:17] Sandpaper wouldn't, but there must be some, there must be like a glass, like a drill with a mesh on it or something like that. I mean, I wonder. Maybe, you know, maybe that's a thought, because the process has been interesting. Because a lot of it's been conceptual, Zoe's made sketches, she'd been thinking about it. I think the glass printing is kind of a really pure process, you know, you give it to, you have to make the design precisely, you give to a machine, the machine makes it. You know, maybe somehow deforming this by hand at this point, making it thinner, making it less regular. I know we could like hang wine glasses from it.
Speaker 4 [00:16:21] What did you learn about sound today? Did you make any discoveries about sound and glass? Glass on glass.
Tod Machover [00:16:34] I think, well, actually one thing we didn't say before is that it turns out that You know, we tried, I brought in a bunch of drumsticks with different materials and different weights. They all had different characteristics. The more solid, the heavier, more solid ones definitely produced more variety. You know you could be hitting them hard, made it resonate, it also had more richer spectrum. Hitting not just with the tip of the stick, but with kind of the whole side of the sticks also made a more complex sound. But when we I mean, I'm holding them, not with my finger, but. Having the two cymbals actually. Oh, we didn't try that. Actually Marion, you were saying the other day, are we using one symbol or are we using like the typical crash symbol? And there's something kind of magical about the two symbols resonating with each other. And it also feels more dangerous that way.
Speaker 1 [00:18:16] That sounded like that was getting closer to the edge than any other time in it.
Tod Machover [00:18:20] Yeah That's pretty beautiful. That's a different sound than we had before. Let's see. That's, that resonates, that glass table resonates the glass symbol in an interesting way, but the table didn't vibrate at all. So we did make something that actually vibrates. That's good. The glass table doesn't. So maybe one thing I'm learning is that... Maybe a drumstick on these isn't the right thing. Maybe it's glass on glass or other kinds of objects. Maybe even a ball. Maybe it is maybe one exploration are the kinds of things that unleash the properties that are there. And maybe a drum stick is just, you know. Too simple. So maybe I learned that since we don't have a lot of experience trying to draw sound out of glass, maybe thinking that it behaves just like a symbol isn't the right way of thinking about it. And we have to resonate in a different way and break it in a different way. So that's what we'll do. If that doesn't work, we can always serve cheese on it.
full interview_zoe laughlin_tod machover_26.mp4
Speaker 1 [00:00:00] I mean really it's a conversation, we're not going to throw you questions, it's just the prompt of, you know, here it is over a year later.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:10] Oh my god, has it really been a year?
Tod Machover [00:00:13] I don't know, we met in October, I'm trying to remember when we had our first conversation.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:17] Well, you came to me in August, I think that was. Where are we now?
Tod Machover [00:00:24] Wait, wait, wait. That was, ah, I can't write, yeah.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:29] Yeah, but it's about a year, I mean, and it doesn't really feel like it because, in a sense, the whole project has kind of come together really quickly, I feel. Even though the conversation started long ago, once we got going with our Zoom meetings, actually we found a way of working that I think I was a bit skeptical about because how can you do a sound thing when you can't touch it and you've got Michael in You're in one place, you're in another, I'm in a third place. And we're dealing with something so physical, but actually we found the language, we found a way to communicate that felt interesting and fruitful.
Tod Machover [00:01:08] Yeah, and I think probably the big breakthrough was how to make the thing, because we started out with existing glass and sonic properties and what was fragile and what wasn't so fragile. And because you had, from the very beginning, this vision of a symbol, and we had fun with real symbols. Yeah, the question was, what does it mean to make one? And actually, it was kind of a surprise to me, because I never really thought about glass making. Complicated that was, both to make, you know, by hand or by blowing it, and I actually thought that the 3D printing, since I knew people had done that at the Media Lab, I thought that would be obvious, but it wasn't.
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:54] Because I think actually, in my imagination, I thought, well, there's about three or four ways one could go about it, but very quickly, it was like actually at the scale which we want it to be. There aren't so many ways that you could make this object, like you couldn't turn it on a lathe, like you could beat it out, like all those things you might do with other materials. It was harder to find the method for glass. And for me, what we've done isn't 3D printing, it's actually a really ancient glass technique of casting. You know, a mold was made, the glass was softened into that mold and allowed to, you know, relax into it. And I think the moment when we found Michael one. That it was someone who would not only give it a go, but also could bring something else to the table and say, well, why don't we try this? Why don't you try this, and actually riff off the idea. Then it sort of like blossomed into another project again, which I thought was really exciting.
Speaker 1 [00:02:49] Damn. Can you just stop for one sec? We're just gonna put the camera back on. Okay, good.
Tod Machover [00:03:03] Do we have to say that again?
Speaker 1 [00:03:04] Nope, nope, nope.
Tod Machover [00:03:07] Because we could, you know.
Zoe Laughlin [00:03:08] Okay.
Speaker 1 [00:03:11] Okay, continue from where you were.
Zoe Laughlin [00:03:13] Yeah, so it became, it blossomed into something else, which I thought was really exciting.
Tod Machover [00:03:18] It did, and then it twisted a few times, actually, because when we were talking about 3D printing, from the start then, I was interested in how to make something that was not necessarily continuous and had different aspects to one piece of glass, because it seemed like it would be amazing to have something that resonated in different ways in different places. As it turned out. That's actually pretty hard. It's hard to do without dampening it. But we ended up with these different models. You know, one of them is layered, and it actually does have this incredible variety of texture, and it turns out that the purest possible one is just thin and beautifully shaped. You know I said it before, but I just find it really touching, literally, to hear how it resonates, and how beautiful it is and also how fragile it is. It's just, you're just always at the edge every time you touch it.
Zoe Laughlin [00:04:25] And I think there's a delicacy and a poignancy that actually is more powerful with the, let's call it the single-pane pure one, because it's in contrast to the others as well. Because you've got those other ones that are more complex and a bit more robust, actually you've that contrast effect that's, for me, heightening the fragility of that central single-paned symbol. And if it was just on its own, I don't know, I wouldn't have necessarily understood. Just quite how vulnerable it is.
Tod Machover [00:04:58] I think you're right, and talking about vulnerable, when was it, a month and a half ago, Michael brought the 14 inch, the smaller ones. Which just didn't resonate. They were beautiful to look at and they were wonderful to kind of, they work pretty well if you hit one with the other.
Zoe Laughlin [00:05:23] Well, that was a great moment because it was, they look great, they don't sound great, and it was sort of, uh-oh. You know, we couldn't deny, it was exciting to have a thing in our hands that was like, well, this is what we were after, but then to realize it's not doing enough. It's not good enough. It's no good enough, and I think for both of us, that was, like, we have to keep pushing then, because we've got to take a risk, and what is the risk? And make some decisions and do we do we go for it on the bigger scale and yeah that's what's really nice is I think we were all on board of just going for it.
Tod Machover [00:06:02] And it actually worked, it did. And I also, when we had the smaller ones, you know, I'm sure it's the same with you there, I worked in different ways on different projects and you know I had an image for what we might do with these symbols when we first talked about them. But I think when I got the small ones, I realized that until we had one that kind of behaved and revealed some beautiful things, there was no point in my. Constructing something in the abstract. So probably more than any project I've done. I think, you know, whatever happens at our performance is something that's grown out of this material, which is also very touching, I think. To me, if it had been a different piece of glass, or it would have revealed something different.
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:53] It's weird because I, in a way, I think secretly felt maybe more confident than you because in my experience, I'm thinking, well, think of like a credit card, right? That feels a pretty stiff thing. Take exactly the same material and just make a credit card this size and it's flopping all over the place. And that game of stiffness is what I knew was happening, that this symbol isn't doing it because it's not big enough. But we didn't know how big... Could have been too big and it just snaps. Is it big enough and it's still not big enough? Like, there was definitely jeopardy in the sense of, we've got to just hope. But I felt like, I don't know, I always believed it wouldn't be good, but I think that doesn't up to me.
Tod Machover [00:07:40] I don't think I believed in the glass, but I did believe in you because that's your field, you know, and I'm really glad that we decided to go sort of the maximum size that
Speaker 4 [00:07:53] It could be killed, it could be made.
Tod Machover [00:07:57] But, yeah, I mean, that's what you have an intuition for, and that's why I think this has been really fun to work on together.
Zoe Laughlin [00:08:04] But I think also for me, as a piece of performance, it needs to have a performer who, in yourself, gets on board with the jeopardy of it, gets on-board with also, this is about you in a material and you in form having a conversation, and this, like allowing a space to be, like preparing, when you talk me through how you've prepared for this, it's like, oh yeah, he's really honoring this object, and this is gonna be, this is going to be something. Special because this can't happen again and it's going to have a very particular kind of experience which will be a live one for the people in the room but you're going to have a particular experience with it which again I'm like incredibly envious of but really very touched and like it's gonna be so brilliant to actually watch you break them that's how I sort of feel like that for me is going to be something that Yeah, on the one hand, I wish I was doing it because it's like, that is an experience that only you will have in the room. But also I wish was watching it, so I'm really pleased I am watching it. Does this make sense? I'm not, I feel like I'm explaining it right. No, it does make sense. Like you, you are gonna miss out on my side of it. Just see what it means. This is sort of, yeah.
Tod Machover [00:09:21] But it's funny, when we were in London breaking all kinds of glass, in some ways, that was kind of a joyous experience. We were experimenting the glass. I mean, some of it was delicate. Some of it it was incredibly hard to break. But I think both of us. Well, but it also had, you know, there was something liberating about it. And you know, it had a kind of... I don't know, just power to it. And that's not what I'm feeling. I think breaking this is...
Zoe Laughlin [00:09:56] The end.
Tod Machover [00:09:56] It's like heartbreaking, you know, it's, I mean, I look forward to it because it'll be powerful, but I wish I didn't have to do that in some way. It's very different than what I expected. And I think until getting that symbol, that pure thing that just behaves so beautifully,
Zoe Laughlin [00:10:15] I didn't realize how it felt. You were like, I don't want to break it. I'm like, you have to break. I know. But this is the perfect, this is what it's about.
Tod Machover [00:10:22] I think we got to the point where it means something.
Zoe Laughlin [00:10:28] Or for a chill, you've got to do it.
Speaker 1 [00:10:35] Maybe we should stop there, actually. Can you just say, in London, because you were formulating your words, it was really wonderful, but just about how joyous it was. Oh, yeah. And this feels different. Okay. We just need kind of a clean.
Zoe Laughlin [00:10:48] I thought of a word I was going to throw in was slightly cavalier, like in London we were slightly cavaliar, like we were, you know, not reckless but we were messing about, we were exploring it, we were trying things out, there was a sort of controlled chaos to things.
Tod Machover [00:11:03] Yeah, I think that's absolutely true, but I felt that in London, it also really had a kind of joyous feel to it, you know? We were trying new things, but boy, it was fun to smash. It was fun smash the delicate things, it's fun to knock two glasses together, it fun and a And you were kind of goading me. I was like, OK, you know, don't hold back. And it was cavalier, but I think it was also. I thought it was kind of exhilarating, let's say.
Speaker 4 [00:11:37] Let's say.
Tod Machover [00:11:38] And I wasn't prepared to feel very, very differently about this. I mean, I thought, yeah, well, the symbols had the same thing. But I find it heartbreaking to break these, and especially that one that's so perfect and beautiful and didn't ask to be broken. Thank you.
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:57] And I think this for me is actually really important because I think a lot about materials and loss and how and damage and repair. And these are things that tells us what things are like. Like damage is a reveal of a materiality, how things break tells you about both how they're made, how they are unmade, what they're made of. But actually, like the letting go and that boundary between treasuring something and then being able to accept. Not being like that forever. Like within the materials library, people always talk about in museums about conservation and like somehow a preservation. But I'm like, then you're not knowing what it wants to do. Like you're no knowing the material or you're know knowing it's one type of its behavior which is to disintegrate or to go moldy or to change over time. And that letting go and the understanding of that change is a type of material knowledge and a type experience. But it is heartbreaking. It's like, I only have to tell you the story of when we moved house when I was a child and the only thing lost in the move was my childhood teddy. Like, the loss of, or the thing that I chipped. To this day, I'm like devastated that I ruined. But it's not, like it's always a journey, like having to come to terms with, like the sort of trauma of objects. But actually then that's them living a type of life as well, because that's the material doing what it will do.
Tod Machover [00:13:27] I think that's right, and I think what touches me about it is... The fact that everything has a limit, not just has a story and has a material, but, you know, there's only a certain amount of time, there's a certain of strength, there's always a certain number of possibility, and, you now, everything about these symbols were at the edge of it, and we explore where that edge is.
Speaker 4 [00:13:59] Can I ask one quick question of both of you?
Speaker 1 [00:14:01] In two words or three, how are you feeling about Thursday? Okay, one sec. One sec. Yeah, expectations, in a sense.
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:10] We call it the performance, rather than Thursday.
Speaker 1 [00:14:18] Okay? Okay.
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:19] Do you want us to put that in the thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 [00:14:22] Thursday
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:24] So the performance itself, I understand you're up, the breaking of the glass is one thing, but the performance, I can't detach the two, this is a terrible way of putting the question. How are you feeling about the performance?
Tod Machover [00:14:39] Well, I totally believe in the project, I believe in context, I believe in the way we set it up. I love the fact that we're doing it in a place that means something to me with people that we care about. We invited people here because we wanted to share this in kind of a different way than you would do in a public concert. I think the hardest thing is that because these symbols are so fragile, it's like zen or something. There's only a certain amount you can prepare. Like the shakuhachi, the great zen bamboo flute, is the opposite of the western flute. The western flute is made out of perfectly milled metal, different kinds of metal, and it's designed that if you practice over and over, you're sure to get the same result. That's what a great flutist does. Shakuhachi's designed so your lips can't even cover the blow hole, your fingers can't cover the holes in the flute, and you never know exactly what... It won't behave. I can't push the cymbals to the limit, I can do exactly the thing because it might break. There's a feeling that... You talk about spontaneous, there's a lot, it'll be alive, the performance. And you know, we really can only do it once. So it's exciting for that, and it's scary. I feel like I have to prepare in a really different way than I usually would. I have prepare about the story and the continuity, and you said it before, I think the way it breaks, the way things resonate, it can't exactly predict. So I have to prepare to be able to adapt and keep something going. And I'm a bit of a control freak, so I feel like this is really stretching me to do something different. I'm excited about it, but I'm pretty scared.
Zoe Laughlin [00:16:36] I'm very pleased that it is going to be witnessed live, like we're in the lucky position that this will be recorded and we'll have a way of interrogating it with microphones and lenses that will maybe reveal something to us later. For me it feels really important that this is a live moment being witnessed by more than just you or I and that this brings something new to the table. My old professor used to say that performance always begins with a group of people standing around waiting and actually we will have a group standing around waiting but we will also have a groups of objects standing around. And I think that for me is really great, the symbols will be there waiting. The people will be there waiting and then they'll be in enactment.
Tod Machover [00:17:25] Yeah, I think something special will happen.
full interview_zoe laughlin_27.mp4
Speaker 1 [00:00:02] So talk a little bit about the role of materials. Let the lower rolling in there.
Speaker 2 [00:00:10] So we're rolling, and let me know when we're done.
Speaker 1 [00:00:18] So talk about the role of materials in making art, traditional making versus cutting edge technology, how different artists use materials and the importance of that.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:34] For many artists, the material is central to what they do. I mean, some artists make work that is immaterial, and is ideas driven, and how it renders into the world could be multifarious, and the material itself isn't the be all and end all. And other artists, it's all about the material, and the material comes first. So you could look at something like a craft practice that's entirely driven about an exploration of a material to someone who... Actually is interested in the poetics of it and how a material behaves, brings something new to the work. So yeah, artists use materials in many, many ways.
Speaker 1 [00:01:13] And you've talked about the various components in making how design, technology, history, philosophy, art, engineering will come together. Would you give us one of those statements?
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:27] Say that again, sorry. You want me to say that it comes together in materials, or you want...
Speaker 1 [00:01:33] Yeah, how materials, using materials combines all of these main disciplines.
Zoe Laughlin [00:01:42] Materials don't exist in one place, in one discipline, in one conversation. They're part of many. And so it's a place where the art, craft, design, technology, the cooking. Let me start again. Do you want cooking in there? Because I remembered you had a chef. You had a Chef. That's why I suddenly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I realized the grammar wasn't right. But one of the things I love about materials is they don't exist in one discipline under one, one of things I like about materials is that they don't belong to one type of practice or one discipline. It's a place where many things come together. It's the place where things come to together. The art, craft, design, technology, science, engineering, cookery, everything is in materials. If you're interested in materials, you're interest in all of those things. Let me try another way round which is, engineering, craft, technology, art, design, cookery. They all have at their heart a manipulation of materials.
Speaker 1 [00:02:50] So we're doing a story about the importance of play, and that is something that you talked about, the importance play in bringing art and science together, the important of play in terms of learning.
Zoe Laughlin [00:03:11] Difficult to over egg how important play is or at least underestimate how important it is because for me play is one of those difficult things to describe difficult things to engineer to happen but when you're doing it is crucial to any project like it's the fiddling around giving something a go getting up to things that spirit of exploration that comes when you are playing that enables you to try something with very low stakes and maybe take something to the brink, break things, make things. Fiddle about, and then have ideas and generate content without feeling like we're doing a project. Can you hear them talking? I can.
Speaker 2 [00:03:54] Sorry, very, very funny. We're good. I had a question, and now it's all clear. OK. I couldn't see from here a little bit. Sorry about that.
Speaker 1 [00:04:03] So the sound on that is right here?
Speaker 2 [00:04:04] We can use it, we can use, but it's off-use.
Speaker 4 [00:04:06] Okay.
Speaker 1 [00:04:09] You want to tell us about the beginnings of the glass symbol story? Yeah. I was having an idea in my back pocket.
Zoe Laughlin [00:04:17] Do you want me to do it as if I haven't done it before?
Speaker 5 [00:04:22] Well, I'm sorry. Let's think about that for a second. She's here in Todd's studio, dressed a particular way.
Speaker 1 [00:04:29] Yes, I know, but we may need it or want it as voiceover. There's a method to my madness. Okay, all right.
Zoe Laughlin [00:04:40] I'm a big believer in having an idea in your back pocket, and what I mean by that is having something that you're kind of always thinking about at the edge of your, no, you're not always thinking of. I'm big believer of having an ideas in your pocket, what I meant by that was having something that if someone says to you, what are you going to do next, actually you might not be doing this next but you can whip it out and you can talk about it and it just lives with you for years probably as something you would like to do Bye! You don't know when you're gonna do it next. And something that's been in my back pocket for a good 15 years now is the idea of making a glass symbol. And I can remember really clearly when I first had this idea. I was finishing up my PhD and I'd made a whole series of objects that were about different properties of materials, sound, taste. And in the sound set, there was tuning forks, there were bells, there were bugles. And I thought, well, the next. What's the next thing I'd want to make in that series and it would be this glass symbol. But the glass symbol became an idea which lived in my back pocket and grew in my imagination. It became a piece of conceptual work which I had thought through quite strongly, but also something that I knew could go in many different directions because the minute it became real, I'd have to let it go somehow. But it was an idea in my pocket because it was the thing that I would want to next if someone said, oh I've got... What would you want to do? You could do anything. Oh, this. I mean, I've got a few of them, but that's one of them.
Speaker 1 [00:06:11] How has this experience been for you? What have you learned up till now?
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:20] This whole process of, again, how much do you want me to...
Speaker 1 [00:06:28] This is before you hear. Yeah.
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:30] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we haven't, this is not at the end, but this is at the beginning, like Todd was, yeah, yeah. Like Todd was, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 [00:06:35] I've got a couple of questions. I know where Marion's going and I've a couple questions to add when Marion's finished. Yes, this is back in the night before.
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Todd was when you interviewed him earlier. This has been one hell of a ride, actually, because there's been something about... The becoming real of something that's existed in my head for over a decade that's been really interesting to observe in myself. I've had to let go of a few things I've have to share some things that you know, I thought it was going to be one way and maybe it's not and that's fine but I just notice in myself an experience of thinking hmm, I've been Composing, actually. Thinking about how Todd talks about things as a composer, he would be sitting on something for a long time, thinking about it for a very long time. The idea of him composing a work entirely in his imagination and then somehow rendering it onto paper and it being real and then passing it over to a group of people to play, I feel like there's a parallel to the process I've gone through, which is there's been this thing in my imagination for a really long time and there's this work I wanted to make that... Had a concept behind it and an idea embedded in it, but also an imagined physicality to it. And so in it becoming real, it's been a process of designing and working with Michael as a fabricator to say, like, what does this thing want to be in reality and what's possible to make and what isn't possible to makes and what is possible for glass to do and glass not to do. But then, like, holding on to the parameters. And setting down like, no, this is a symbol and this is the symbol that's going to be broken. Didn't want it to move too far away from it being something that didn't look like a symbol anymore and like it could have gone in many different directions but there was like some parameters I really wanted us to hold on to because this wasn't about making an orchestra a glass orchestra or it was about a glass symbol and I think that part of me had to allow the other people in the room to bring something to the table not allow like I was ever gonna not allow it, but just in my imagination. Allow myself to let go of something that I had imagined and embrace what it was becoming. And then when I've watched each person respond to it, for me, that's been the work, if that makes sense. Like one piece of the work is what will happen the night of the performance. And the symbol is made to be broken. This is really clear for me. And this is a very important part of the word. But another part of work.
Speaker 2 [00:09:21] Excuse me sorry you guys if you keep it we see that and so when you started doing it that so could we just maybe just turn it off then we don't risk it going off awesome thank you
Speaker 6 [00:09:37] wedding.
Speaker 2 [00:09:38] Yeah. Go over something before you go.
Zoe Laughlin [00:09:41] I want to finish the thought about what was I saying now, I've completely forgotten.
Speaker 6 [00:09:47] It's the last thing you said was it's... Sorry to interrupt like that. That it's going to be broken.
Zoe Laughlin [00:09:54] Oh no, I remember what I was going to say. So yeah, a very important part of the work is that this symbol is made to be broken and that this will be enacted. But another, for me, important part of the piece is seeing how somebody who's embedded in sound has responded to it. And like, making something, you know, if we consider this symbol a sculpture, this has had a very profound effect on Todd. And it's been really interesting to watch him respond to it And for me, that's been part of the work. Part of the works is to make an object, to conceive an object. Have the object made and present it to somebody who will now make an interpretation of it. And one of the rules in place is, you need to interpret this to the point of breaking. But to see him take that and have an effect on him, for me is really one of surprising aspects of this project. But something for me that's made it feel like, yeah, that's a success for me because it's making him feel something. This is an object that requires an enactment. It requires, it is performative. It doesn't live until it's playing. But for me, it doesn't leave until it playing to the point of breaking. And living on that brink point is where you start to know something new about the material. And watching the object and performer relationship has been amazing. And what I'm really looking forward to is the object performer audience relationship is gonna be a new thing again. Yeah, it's very exciting.
Speaker 2 [00:11:31] Mr. Day. Can I just pull you closer to the camera? If you stand up, I'll move you. Thank you. Here we go, and if you sit to this side. Perfect, thank you. Is that fair? Yep.
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:46] You should go back to the idea of letting go of something.
Speaker 1 [00:11:49] Yes, you had started to say something about having to have this idea all your life.
Zoe Laughlin [00:11:55] Yeah, yeah, I think it's not letting go in a kind of really dramatic sense but it's acknowledging inside yourself that when you're making something even if I was making something on my own not in collaboration you have to let go of what's in your head sometimes and respond to what happens in front of you and notice things and follow what you're noticing but then when you are doing it in collaboration with others again there's another layer of what are they noticing and you need to listen to that and you need to respond to that, and maybe... That's more important than what you noticed. And you need to surrender certain things and to properly collaborate and for something to go somewhere new, I think you have to be prepared to let go sometimes.
Speaker 1 [00:12:38] So you walked in here yesterday, and for the first time, you saw these three object of your dreams on stands. What did you feel? What was going on in here?
Zoe Laughlin [00:12:52] There's two strong, almost conflicting emotions. One is, oh my god, wow. When you first start. Oh yeah, sorry, sorry. Yeah, sorry sorry. First, walking into Todd's barn and seeing those three symbols set up on the stands, I actually had two, not conflicting, but two different emotions simultaneously. One was like, oh my God, wow, they're amazing, beautiful, special, the whole atmosphere, the set up. You know, there was a beauty in what they looked like. And there was an excitement to see rendered physical, something that's lived in my head for so long. But there was also a kind of like... That's not it. That's... That's just... The object. That is not... That's potential, I think that's what I mean. I saw potential for what it would be and I think what it will be is the thing I'm most interested in, which is what happens when it's played, when it is used, when it taken to the brink. So when it stood there, it's a bit like. I don't want to sort of fetishize it, if that makes sense. I don't want it to be like, ah, the glass symbol, the class symbol. That's a tool, that's an object, that's a thing that's asking you to do something. And that's what's exciting. It's like demanding an enactment. So I'm looking at it with a sense of potential and readiness to really bring it to life, I think, through doing something with it, yeah. And watching it go past the point of no return. That's gonna be the moment for me.
Speaker 1 [00:14:33] And as you think about that moment 24 hours from now, the single word, as you think about tomorrow.
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:41] Yes. That's the single word. Maybe not a single word
Speaker 1 [00:14:49] No, what's your...
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 [00:14:53] Distill your can you distill your anticipation about tomorrow?
Zoe Laughlin [00:14:59] I'm ready. Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1 [00:15:03] Tomorrow. I think about tomorrow.
Zoe Laughlin [00:15:04] Oh, you want that, I was thinking about one word. I'm trying to give you like one word moment. No, okay, tomorrow, blah, blah blah, okay. If I think about tomorrow's upcoming performance, I'm ready, like that symbol is ready. It's heavily pregnant, ready, expecting. Oh, no, that's not the wrong analogy. The, yeah. I think, about tomorrow performance, I think for me. That's the moment the cymbal's really gonna live its best life. Like, I'm ready to see it do its thing.
Speaker 5 [00:15:45] So I know you were listening to Todd from up there. So you started talking about the symbol, and he was crying. You should look at Mary. Oh, sorry. Why don't you look at Louis now? No, no, no. Actually, I wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine. Just simply. I know he can handle it. What's going on there? I think I know that he was affected by it. I was sort of overwhelmed. It was sort pointy. He was overwhelmed by his emotion at this thing that's been created.
Zoe Laughlin [00:16:15] Yeah, Todd being so moved is for me one of the. Very special things about this project because it shows it really means something and it means something to both of us in different ways. But to see that he's connected with that object and as a performer he's going to care about what he does, I couldn't wish for anything better really. Yeah. And listening to him talk about the work, I realized that in an interesting way. In some ways, I'm the composer here, and he's the musician now. He's the performer of a piece of work that I've composed, that he's now breathing life into. And there isn't a score, there's a conversation, but there's score in terms of it's a glass symbol you take to breaking over five minutes. It's a very limited score for a set of parameters within which he'll perform. But it will be... Yeah, something that he breathes the life into. And so to see that he's connected a bit so strongly and it resonates for him emotionally I think is very powerful.
Speaker 5 [00:17:28] It's interesting comparing the two of listening to what you said in this interview and what he said. It seems to me that for you, the symbol, its power includes its breaking, right, as part of it. For you, that makes it complete. That's shadow, or when it's pushed beyond limits. But for Todd, he also cried when he talked about his cello, which has been part of his life for his entire life. So for him... It's not about the breaking He has a different agenda It means something different It's interesting that the two of you are agreeing with each other
Zoe Laughlin [00:18:06] Sorry, I'm looking at it again. Yeah, I think he obviously has very particular relationships to his instruments. And I suppose, for me, I've thought of the symbol in terms of an object, a sculpture, a demonstration, a piece of apparatus, it's a piece of conceptual art, it a piece of material science, it many things in one object. But for me it's not an instrument because I'm not the player, right? For him it's his instrument, and it's an instrument. Demonstrate something about what he's found in it I think and that's really beautiful to watch him find something in it and to care about it.
Speaker 1 [00:18:58] So what if it doesn't break?
Zoe Laughlin [00:19:06] I mean we've not made an unbreakable cymbal so there's no, for me there's no opportunity for this not to break on the night because it just means he has to keep playing more. You play till it is breaking, like he can't stop any other way. If he plays it and he becomes so overcome and he can't do it, that's a different thing. And that means like, he can do it. Okay, he cant do it Someone else needs to play it then.
Speaker 1 [00:19:42] He was making some notes, he seems to be calling it, taken to the limit.
Zoe Laughlin [00:19:50] I think that's the point, you have to cross the finishing line, otherwise you haven't finished the race. You can be an extremely respected person who pulls up with an injury, it's not like we're judging you for not finishing the race, but you haven't t finished the racing if you don't cross that finishing line. And in this case, the braking, I think, is when you cross that line. You have to across the line.
Speaker 6 [00:20:18] Thank you.
Speaker 4 [00:20:19] The only thing I just wanted to bring one thing back to you, because you talk a lot about it, but do materials talk to you? Do they give you sort of a sense of what they are? I mean, I realize that I don't want to fetishize it either.
Zoe Laughlin [00:20:40] No, no, no. No, but I think... You're describing to me is, there's definitely a sense in which materials... Have an agency is, I don't mean to get hippy on this, this is not spiritual, this is not anything other than about noticing things, and having a sensibility that comes through experiencing the world, and paying attention to stuff, really, and once you start paying attention to things, you get a feedback from it, and you're like, oh, that's interesting, when it does this, this happens. Todd is paying very close attention to those symbols, so he's starting to notice something and they're starting to talk back to him and tell him, well, they're telling him what it wants to do and what, you know, he's trying to do something with it and it's going, no, no. So materials talk to you in the sense of, they will reveal what they do or don't want to do if you pay attention to them and engage with them in a meaningful way.
Speaker 1 [00:21:49] There's a whole generations of work, but there's a whole group of artists now who are looking at art through materials in many ways their forebears did except they weren't making art they were making things that kept them warm or that responded to a household need and People stand back in the single, that's not art, that just... Mm, mm. So, what do you think about materials, art, crap?
Zoe Laughlin [00:22:23] Mm-hmm. I think one of the wonderful things about materials is you can look at them from many different points of view and with many different lenses and you know I might look at some butter and think about where's the bread and someone else might think oh, last time I go in Paris, who knows? Like you have different things that you bring to materials that are to do with your life experience and you may have been somebody who grew up in a household where they only used olive oil and you're not used to fat in solid form so butter is think exotic and... Well, you know, there's every material people bring their own perspectives to, but also then there's cultural resonances and layers, and you might work with sugar and actually be interested in sugar's relationship to slavery, and, or you might be interested in sugar relationship to obesity, or you may be simply counting calorific value as a unit of space and time, and I'm making things with cubes because I'm interested in the cube in relation to modern art as a form. Like. There's many reasons why people might pick a material, and it could be because of meaning they bring to it, but it could because of it's the right thing for the job and the job is I need to be able to stand on it. You know, then that limits it again. Or I want to stand it, but I want it to then, I want a sink into it. Like what material you're gonna pick then. Like you're picking it for effect, you're pick it for meaning, you're picking it because it's all you've got. Like there's lots of reasons why people might work with different materials. I try not to judge, because I think it's very easy to dismiss certain materials because of, oh, that's a material that's not a serious art material, or that's material for this use, it's not for that use. I think if you look at the world of craft, often what happens there is people get sort slightly looked down upon because what they've done is a light on a material with a particular meaning to it and they're sticking with it. Or they're particularly interested in a particular functional form. But actually the boundaries of where materials can exist and what they get up to is very broad and I don't think you have to sort of say, oh yeah, that's a good use of a material and that's not a good of a use of the material. You've got to be more sophisticated than that. It might not be what you're after but It's just what came to mind.
Speaker 6 [00:24:47] That's great.
Zoe Laughlin [00:24:50] Can I talk about the other end of the spectrum or something else as well, which is there's a definite trend? There's definitely, you see also kind of material trends, like some piece of work, someone gets into ceramics, then lots of people are into ceramicks. And these things, this is normal cycles of fashion, but also technology comes into play, like a new tool enables something, a new material is born, like smart materials are the new thing. But actually, for me, all materials are smart. It's just, you're not asking the right questions of them if you don't understand what's smart about butter as opposed to aerogels. Like There's something in everything, you've just got to interrogate it.
full interview_zoe laughlin_tod machover_michael stern_29.mp4
Speaker 1 [00:00:00] So this is really just a mob of operations at this point. We've had a wonderful week. Everybody has been great, just not only with your work, but also talking to us on camera about what happened. So we just have a couple of thoughts and a couple questions and sort of high level, high level questions just to wrap things up. But why don't we just start with last night and how you feel about what happens. And feel free to talk about yourselves, talk to me, and everybody.
Zoe Laughlin [00:00:35] He's going fast.
Tod Machover [00:00:37] I like it, yeah. I thought last evening was pretty special, actually. And kind of the whole thing. One thing I noticed is that everything schedule-wise that we talked about happened right on time, which with a big crew and our symbols and all these people coming from different places was kind of remarkable. And so this complex, crazy project. Came together artistically, but it came together as a structure, too. I think it was planned well. But besides that, you know, I was pretty nervous. I'm always nervous before a performance of something brand new. But I think this one, I'm thinking just walking in here this morning, the extra nervousness for me about this was that... It's one thing when I do a project with a bunch of musicians and maybe a bunch, there's always things with technology where things can go wrong and how's it gonna come together. This, there was nothing except the three of us who made this thing and then I was standing there with a couple of sticks and these pieces of glass with nothing else, you know? And I thought of the piece and we knew all of the be spontaneously different during the performance, so it could have gone many ways, but I think... I think the way we gave a little bit of information ahead of time, I thought it was just about the right amount to reveal to people. I think people felt very excited and comfortable being there. I could see it in their faces. And I think the show, the experience, was just about... What we'd hoped. So I feel really good about it. And it was great to be able to share with people afterwards. We were talking about what happens after. You know, do people know what to do? But even that, you know, I think. People were incredibly absorbed and they wanted to take their breath also and people wanted to talk a little and then we had the chance in the evening to unwind and really think about it. A couple of people stayed quite late at our place just to talk about what had happened. So yeah, I can kind of unequivocally say I was really not just pleased but it felt like something special happened and. You know, I think we did that together and that felt really good too.
Zoe Laughlin [00:03:18] Yeah, I agree. Within the moment of the performance, I keep coming back to this sensation that you gave us, which was, I felt at some point, I was like, oh my God, I'm really comfortable with it, and then I'm not comfortable at all. Incredibly comfortable and then oh my goodness I'm not comfortable at all. I was like don't get too comfortable but get comfortable and there was this really interesting toying with expectations even though I knew where things were going I was allowed to forget that and then remember it and there is this fantastic moment where you were leaning across the central symbol and like going on the rim of the ones either side and it was like a full body and at some I think your physicality changed with it as well, like you... Suddenly locked into them in a really interesting way, which I found fascinating.
Tod Machover [00:04:10] I'm so glad. How about you? You made these things.
Michael Stern [00:04:17] I loved watching the relationship that you had with them sort of develop and sort of seeing that happen from the 14 inch symbol where it was sort of a harder relationship to the 26 inch symbol, where there was like this real bonding occurred that I think went beyond my expectations. And I found as I was watching, I was sort seeing this intimacy that you have in a sort of different way than I have with the glass. And I love seeing you play it and really sort of become so... Focused on them and with them. So that was a really special part of it. And that was like a tension that maybe for me, since I knew it was gonna break just, and we had talked about it, that I got this sort of insight into what you were feeling. And so the emotional landscape was really interesting for me and lovely to watch.
Zoe Laughlin [00:05:07] It really came across.
Tod Machover [00:05:08] Oh, that's wonderful. One thing I noticed, I was thinking about that this morning also, since I inadvertently broke a few of them in rehearsing and trying, and you were kind enough to make replacements. And it's amazing how the ones in the same series, like the single layer and the textured ones. I guess it's not that, well, it's not that surprising, but I was surprised that they, there's kind of a family, you know, if you're making a single layer one. There's a new one that comes in, they're very close in personality and feel, and you know, even though they're handmade and in this new technique, and the layered ones too. You know, I broke one yesterday morning without intending to, luckily it brought another one, and the one with the holes and without the holes, the actual resonance of them was quite similar, which is kind of amazing. Did either of you expect that?
Zoe Laughlin [00:06:03] I think I expected all of the single-pane ones to be more similar to each other than they were to the layered ones, like that I would expect, and I would also expect there to be some differences, but yeah, to see that their similarities overrode their differences was really nice.
Michael Stern [00:06:23] Yeah, I think it sort of felt like a grand experiment. I think when we made these different variants, ones with holes, ones without holes, there was this sort of opportunity to see what emerged as the sort of sonic implications of what we were doing. I think its really hard to predict what's gonna happen with musical instruments. There's sort of like a black magic at some level to understanding what comes out of them. And so I think it was fun to see each of them and as symbols broke during practice you had to like form new relationships with new symbols. And so, I remember the one that ended up taking over on the right, at first you were like, this one's sort of boring. And then it became one of the trio and when it became the trio you formed a new relationship with and you were like, oh I found all these amazing things about this one also. And so that was sort of, it was really fun and interesting to see how each one evolved and part of it was sort time spent, I think.
Tod Machover [00:07:27] Yeah, and I'll just say, in breaking a few inadvertently, I did of course learn something about how they break. And so, even though many things could have happened, I think by the time we got to last evening, I had a pretty good sense of how far I could push the ones on the end, and a pretty sense of what it would take to get close to breaking the one in the middle and then breaking it. So, thanks for providing the extra ones. Yeah, it was great. Those hurt too to have to break them, but.
Zoe Laughlin [00:07:56] Reflecting on breaking things, I always sort of say to my students and things like making things is breaking things because be it like, oh, I don't want to make a mark in my brand new notebook, I didn't want a spoil that blank page or I've got a lovely bit of timber, you're going to cut it in half. Even the process of creating something will be the process or destroying something else and that's something that I'm more used to and I think Michael again, breaking things comes. Into play a lot when you're making things out of glass. Like you have to get comfortable with operating at that limit.
Michael Stern [00:08:29] Yeah, absolutely. That's something that sort of is really ingrained in us from the beginning, is you're always trying to ask yourself, like when you're making something that's hot, how hot can it be? Because the hotter, usually, the faster you can make it. And it tends to be you get into more of a flow while you're make, if it's on the hotter ends. We're always telling our students, get it hotter, get hotter. And then you have to find yourself at some point, fail getting it hotter. And see that moment, and then you can learn for the future, oh, it needs to be just a little closer, but you always have to sort of flirt with that edge.
Speaker 1 [00:09:02] So I'm going to start this off with Zoe, and then everybody can weigh in. And again, talking among yourselves is great, but just every once in a while, just include, it's a dinner party, and you're including the quiet and the quiet. The quiet bill is excluded. No, it is the camera. It's not what we've been looking for. OK, so this is kind of a big question. We all, everybody sitting here, really got invested in this project, really happy with the way it turned out. But what does it all mean? Why should other people care? The people watching the film, for example. What do we learn from this extra song? Okay. Yeah, no, I've got it.
Zoe Laughlin [00:09:52] I think I can take away something very personal from this but if I try and think about a broader meaning I mean it's in the eye of the beholder but for me hopefully there's a new relationship people can have to glass like you can see things literally through a new lens now like you might look at your window and just think oh yeah glass that would be enough for me but you know you're watching potentially this program through a screen. Very well made from glass. Like it's all around us, and it mediates our day-to-day lives, and something that we very easily forget about, mainly because we can actually look through it more often than not, and we're thinking about the view beyond it than maybe the window pane in front of the view. But yeah, if this is an opportunity to just like, think about glass and notice it, I think that would be great.
Speaker 1 [00:10:48] It's also about materials, beyond that, right? I mean, not those glass specifically, but just about materials doing many things. Okay.
Zoe Laughlin [00:10:56] Okay, yeah, the thing I said before the show. I see what I've got here. But this for me is very much about materials and how materials perform. Like materials are getting up to things all the time and how they behave and how the interact with us is what generates the world of objects and things and the stuff that we enjoy and interact with and might call a chair. But this chair is doing something in order for me to sit comfortably on it and it's behaving a certain way. And glass does that, glass behaves in a certain way and often. We ignore it, we literally look through it, and don't think about it. And if this is an opportunity to have a moment to then look at the window in your house and think, oh yeah, glass, I forgot about you. You know, that would be great.
Tod Machover [00:11:45] It's interesting, last night we were talking, I think it was after the show, might have been right before the show. But I remember we were taking about this idea of both of you spend your lives working with materials. You spend your life working with glass. And this idea finding limits and pushing limits as being kind of essential to being creative in that medium. And I was thinking that, you know, in the way I... About music, um, it's always been somewhat different. Um, you know, I w we've talked about it some when we talk about creative process. I mean, I, I tend to imagine something that I'd like to hear that I like to feel that I liked to see happen and then, um figure out some way to make that happen kind of no matter what. And of course you're stretching the people playing it and you're stretching listeners. But, but I think for me this project, um I think both in what it ended up being and in kind of what learned from it as it it really invited and caused me to think about the limits of things, you know, I mean, we all know, you, I'm not 20 years old anymore, so you think of the limits of a human life and of a body and of, but you know that's what this glass is, it's so present, you everything about it is both beautiful and created and we made these things, we imagined this and it sounds beautiful. But its limit is there every second. And part of my job in making the piece was to bring everybody into that fact that they're not just interesting objects, but, oh my, this could happen any time, and well, maybe not now. So I think that idea of limits being everywhere all the time and being, you know, both frightening. And also inspiring and part of the whole picture is deeply important and I think, you know, it made me see all of that differently.
Zoe Laughlin [00:13:52] But also, I'm thinking about the body in it as well, in that the symbol was going to a limit, but it would potentially have an effect. Like, we've all experienced cutting ourselves in some form or other, and cutting yourself on glass is often a very particular type of cut that can be very, very fine. And at first you don't notice it, but then you're bleeding and like, oh God, how did that happen? Or sharpness and like flying glass and all of the connotations around breaking glass and danger. And then when you were talking about damage and how we would damage materials, actually in making things you can often damage yourself. And I think potentially as a musician, you might not be breaking your instrument, but you might be developing a crick in your neck with the violin or you want those calluses on your fingers for the strings. Like you need to take something beyond for your body in order for it to be operating at its optimum as well.
Tod Machover [00:14:45] Yeah, that's a great point. I remember the TED conferences, and for a while, about 20 years ago, for a few years, they had something called TED Med, where they did conferences just around health and well-being. And I remember I was invited to give a talk with a close colleague of mine. Because of my usual optimism and you know I gave my talk on you know all the benefits that music has to our health and well-being and for you know curing anxiety and for and my friend talked about how a life in music often destroys bodies and destroy you know both because you know look you know look at Mozart you know dying at 36 he kind of just worked himself out but you know, everything about it, the physical. You know, just torture it takes to master an instrument, and it's not ergonomic, doesn't do well for your body, the kind of just life you have to lead to make the music, it's... Let's.
Speaker 5 [00:15:48] So I want to do a quick question just sort of along that line. Part of this symbol, to me, was all about fragility. And it's a kind of metaphor, isn't it? Isn't that what we're all kind of talking around a little bit? It's kind of a metaphor for perhaps something a little, little bit bigger. Anyone want to pick up on that?
Tod Machover [00:16:19] Well, I think the idea of fragility is very closely connected to this idea of limits, and I think, I the paradox with these symbols is that, and we set them up so that they weren't all the same, you know, but I think that the one in the middle, the pure single layer symbol, was both the most beautiful and most resonant and most varied and was incredibly fragile, and you could see that, you could hear it, you can look at it see it. You could probably see it in the way that I treated it. I knew that I couldn't bash it with that. The ones on the ends, on the other hand, were kind of the opposite. I think probably everybody looking at these glass things expected them, would have expected them to break when I hit them pretty hard. And first of all, in playing them, I realized that they were stronger than I expected. They could break unexpectedly. But I also found places in them. Quite a bit of force and not have them break. So I think even the idea of fragility is complex. Often things are fragile that you don't expect them to be. We were talking yesterday, like glass. I think, Michael, you said, or maybe both of you did, that any piece of glass is going to have a weak point somewhere. And it may have more than one. And you don't know where it is exactly, like in all of us. You know, we kind of. Get through our lives, but they're things that shock us in how ill-equipped we are to deal with it, either physically or mentally or whatever. So I think even fragility is complex.
Speaker 5 [00:18:03] Well, that's sort of what I was going for. I sort of like the concept that actually we are all fragile, right, in our own way. And that somehow, I think, in the way in which you all have kind of imbued this object with something larger than merely the object itself, right? I don't know if anybody wants to comment on that at all.
Zoe Laughlin [00:18:23] I find it difficult to talk in those terms because I think... It's not for me. I like that space to remain unspoken by the producer because I think otherwise you're just an asshole. Myself. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? I don't really talk in metaphorical terms about things in that way, I suppose. Does that, do you know, it's like saying what we've done is really beautiful. It's like, all right. You know, like, we know those things, so I don't know. I don't really want to say that myself.
Speaker 1 [00:18:56] We're just casting about for, you know, the process itself is fascinating, and we just want to imbue it a little more in terms of the process.
Zoe Laughlin [00:19:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I appreciate it, but I'm just saying I won't talk about it.
Speaker 1 [00:19:10] I want to talk about the process, and Michael, we can kick this off with you, which is the audience is watching this, and they're watching the three of you coming together on this, but what are they seeing about the nature of collaboration and creativity in what this whole process goes through?
Michael Stern [00:19:33] That's a hard question. What are they singing about the nature of...
Speaker 1 [00:19:38] What did you experience? I mean, you know, I mean I can tell you what we saw. We saw this amazing coming together.
Tod Machover [00:19:43] You're saying it's hard because you can't really predict what other people saw in us?
Michael Stern [00:19:48] I think it's hard on both counts. I think one, a really interesting element that I think isn't gonna fit well into the TV piece of this, but the TV audience got to see us, like got to the story of the making and the process and that collaboration. And then in the night of itself, there's an audience that comes in and sees us as three people and hears a little bit about that, but doesn't really get to see or experience that. And so there's sort of a discord, I think, with those two experiences. And they didn't have an intimacy like we did with the glass. Or the same understanding of fragility, for instance. I was talking to a couple people after, and some of the most beautiful perspective of the symbols was Todd's perspective, was sort of standing there, looking out, they're sort of angled, and you get to see the sort of really glow in the light. And so there are a lot of different angles and perspectives and different stories for different audiences.
Speaker 1 [00:20:46] I'll tell you what I saw, okay, and maybe this makes sense to you or it doesn't, but I saw first of all two very different people, you know, gifted but in very different ways and I still remember the first time we introduced you on Zoom and I said, I hope I could say this, it was almost like a blind date. Okay, and like where they're gonna get along together, you know, and where they were they're going to be you know Understand each other and respect each other's space and that's what I saw. I saw this amazing sort of understanding of like That's what you're interested in. I see, Tony, what you are getting at. This is my interest, and you saw that. And then Michael came on as a completely, like, somewhat of a wild card, right? And because you have a very, very specific role here. And it was great. And you and Zoe immediately started talking about materials. And I saw an amazing collaborative performance that played out. And I don't think we could have asked for anything better as producers. But I'm just wondering... Without people knowing about the schedule and the budget and Todd's schedules and our schedules, I think you see something amazing. That's what I'm excited about putting this one together.
Michael Stern [00:21:59] Yeah, I mean, I think it felt like a celebration of the three of us together. I think we all really enjoyed that time together, and it was the first time we'd spent physically in the same place. And I think that's really, really meaningful on a project like this, and really meaningful because over the last period of time, there hasn't been those human connections in the same way. So like to sort of form not just like a collaboration, but also really a friendship around this project was... Very special.
Speaker 6 [00:22:32] Yeah, go ahead. I certainly would like to address this in the context of creativity. You go into an atelier of a great designer or someone who's a fabulous workshop. And there are a lot of people that are collaborating. But there's the single vision, the single sort of creative journey. What I've seen throughout this is three creative journeys that exist in context of one another, separately from one another and different from any of the creative processes certainly we've covered on this series where it's been a person or an atelier. But here are three paths, very different perspectives. Three creative journeys that become one and discuss. I think.
Michael Stern [00:23:31] I think for me one of the special parts of this project was having three voices that also spoke for some different essential element of the project and sort of advocated for that piece. So you have Todd sort of advocating for music and Zoe advocating for material and for acoustics and I got to advocate for glass and glass in its forming process so like hot glass, cold glass. And so there was this really... This sort of, the voices came together to form a trio, to have a conversation and make something special. Respecting each of those elements and listening to this other person sort of put voice to what that facet of it needed.
Tod Machover [00:24:20] And I think something else that was kind of special about this, you know, besides the fact that it turned out that we trusted each other and, you know, we're interested in each other, which means a lot, and liked each other. You know, those are all really important. I think the fact that the focus of it, it all comes back to that, the darn symbol, you know. The fact that all of our creative effort was around this object or type of object nothing could happen, none of this magic could have happened if all the elements weren't unified and focused. So like often in a lot of the projects I do where, you know, you've got people building technology and writing software and building sets and, you know, imagining stories and, but, you know, it like most of the effort is spent getting those people to talk to each other and because it's very easy for, not that the project wouldn't work, but for the whole process to go off and kind of parallel parts and, You know, you've got the teams who... Are doing that and then, but this, you know, we couldn't do this without at every stage saying, okay, well, what's it for? And what, you now, what it's gonna look like and how's it actually gonna be made? And so I think it really mattered that we were, in a really nice way, each of us was involved at each step in an important way without stepping on each other's toes for, like, I didn't have any pretension for how the thing could actually be made, but it made a difference. And, you know... You guys didn't try to tell me what sound to make, but I know you, you know, we talked about it a lot and you had lots of ideas about that. It was very unique. I think the fact that it was so focused on this object, you know I've never had an experience quite like that. And it was great that there were three of us and not 30 of us, I think that's true also. I'm a big believer in small close collaborations with people you care about.
Zoe Laughlin [00:26:15] Yeah, I think that's, for me, the important part is if you don't like the people and you're not prepared to have lunch with them and you are not going to collaborate well with them, you know. And at the core of this is three people who actually enjoyed talking about ideas together, enjoyed the potential of working together in the very beginning. It's like, oh, that sounds, you can see what that person can bring to the table, you see what the person can do to the people. There was never a moment where someone was, for me, trying to step up. Not that. I think we all respected each other's areas if that makes sense, like there wasn't anybody trying to sort of override because it's not possible so therefore just don't do it. You know what I mean? It's like okay, that might be interesting, let's see. That was much more the spirit of it I think.
Tod Machover [00:27:04] That makes me think of something else that I think is key, which is, I think we all, it's kind of following on exactly to what you just said, which is that I we all had almost exactly the same level of confidence that this would work, and, you know, feeling that we weren't sure, and we weren, you now, we weren't sure exactly what the final thing, you, you' know, none of us felt like, oh, I know exactly what this should be, so be quiet, and we're gonna do it, or. I'm doing this, but it ain't gonna happen. I think we all were just in the right sweet spot of, you know, we have a vision for it, we're gonna go for it. You know, I'm scared, we're going to try it. That's rare also, because the...
Zoe Laughlin [00:27:48] Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel like I had to fight for anything. Does that make sense? It does make sense. Sometimes you really have to fight your corner for something. And I feel like if I sort of go back to the sort of original moment of this is about a glass symbol, it wasn't like you'd go, actually, suddenly we've made some other things of glass and we're playing a whole thing. And I'm just like, oh, the symbol. Oh, no, I'm going to have to, like, say no, guys. No, it's not. It's not a wine glass. We were. It was both. There was both a chance for it to. Travel away from it but come back to it. Does that make sense? So it was like-
Tod Machover [00:28:22] It makes total sense. I think it's kind of a miracle.
Zoe Laughlin [00:28:25] Yeah, and I didn't feel like I was being pulled away from the idea, but also that I didn't t have to say, which I would have done, do you know what I mean? I would've said, this is not the same project anymore. Do you see what I'm mean? If it felt like it wasn't the same project anymore, then I would' ve felt like I would of said it, but it was always that project and a new project that it couldn't have been without either of you in the room, which for me is a really successful mark of something new and exciting.
Michael Stern [00:28:53] I think the other thing I was going to say is that glass is a really humbling material, and I think this is sort of was a humbling process. And I think that at its best, it makes you also humble to it. And I feel like we shared a humility also to each other and what each person's needs and what the instrument needed and what, and sort of really trusting to hear these different voices and that I think made for a really successful result.
Tod Machover [00:29:22] Do you think glass is the most humbling material? I'm just curious. I see what you mean.
Michael Stern [00:29:27] I think I just it humbles me regularly. It's the material that I have more experience with than than any other so
Tod Machover [00:29:37] I think from that perspective. This is your main media.
Michael Stern [00:29:41] I think one of the other things that I love about it that I think Zoe will appreciate is that I find it to be a loud material. Because it has such limits that it shows you really readily. It's too hot and it's like formed into a mass that you weren't intending it to be or you're pushing it to its limits and it cracks. You viscerally understand that and so you can hear it and sort of adjust. And I think that... Metal, because of its ductility, doesn't have those same limits and doesn't communicate them in the same way. They may still be there, but they're sort of harder to detect.
Zoe Laughlin [00:30:15] Yeah, failure means something different in lots of different materials, I suppose, and I think because we live around glass and we experience a very particular type of failure and its fragility in a very specific way, then we have, yeah, you don't experience metal failing in a similar way, even though it can do, but that's sort of another story. But one of the things, again, that people don't often think about is actually the plasticity of glass, so whilst we can very easily take it beyond its elastic limit and that's what we're dealing with when we deal with something fracturing. Actually, if you were to make a glass spring, it will bounce. There is flex in this stuff and if there wasn't it wouldn't resonate and actually the flexing of glass is what we are seeing as much as the fragility. We are actually seeing a type of robustness at the same time.
Michael Stern [00:31:08] Yeah, you could see those moments in it during the making when there were these big, flat disks before they were slumped at all, and you could reflections on the surface. If you tapped them, you can see the reflections sort of wiggle as the glass actually sort of bows and moves.
Speaker 1 [00:31:24] I have a question, one question for Tom, then I'm done. Okay, then you can guess. I just want you to, this is a very specific thing, but last night you did what you had never done, which is you went beyond your previous limit, because you knew you were going all the way. Just tell us, when did you feel that happening? What would you, just tell us about your state of mind, as if we're looking at the video of you performing yesterday, Right here, here. Your director's comment, the commentary's judge.
Tod Machover [00:31:55] Yeah, so I guess, you know, in a concise way. I knew what the plan was, I knew the trajectory of creating expectation, having people feel close to the glass, having it, having that I was pushing it to the limit but I knew I wanted to pull back from that so it wouldn't be obvious and then I knew there was going be this last section. Of little by little, you know, this kind of combination of making the cymbal sound like a gong, like a meditation where the vibration, you feel the vibration and it's very focusing and calming but at the same time threatening and I knew that in getting in that section I couldn't know ahead of time exactly where the breaking point was. I designed it in kind of waves where I could move up the side and get louder, knowing that I wanted to do that enough times so that it would both comfort people and get you on the edge. And I knew that if I, if it didn't break after a certain point, you know, subconsciously people would say. You know, I think I knew the limits well enough that I got to push it far enough and knew that the next time I can and should break it. And I guess just as a last comment for what it felt like, I was most afraid that, I mean, again, it's just me standing there with these pieces of glass, and I thought my mind would wander or I'd go like, you know, what am I doing here with this glass and? But I was totally, you know, focused on the sound and making this happen and the shape of it. And it was one of the more wonderful kind of performance experiences for me. And I'm not quite sure exactly why. Maybe it was because the cymbal was simple and I had a relationship with it. Yeah, I think it had the shape that I wanted.
Speaker 6 [00:34:20] So relationship is the question that I wanted to ask. Musicians often have deep relationships with their instruments, yo-yo, ma, and petunia. And here you've got this item that has been made a number of times and has demonstrated various kinds of fragility, but this is not an instrument you've had for a long time that you've played for a lot of time, yet when you played it, I personally... I saw the same emotional resonance that I would expect you to have with your cello, which you have known forever. And I'm just, how did that, how did you form that relationship to the point to which it made you cry?
Tod Machover [00:35:15] I'm trying to think how to answer and repeat what part of the question so people know what I'm talking about. So, you know, I do play the cello, and I... Oh, wait, sorry. Did she ask the question? No, no.
Speaker 7 [00:35:30] This is your piece, Dan.
Tod Machover [00:35:31] Nah, nah, nah. I'm kidding. I am kidding. So in some ways, one of the most surprising things to me is that I do feel like for whatever reason I developed some kind of real attachment to these symbols and I've been around music instruments my whole life. The cello I have, I've had at least for this particular cello, I have had for 30 years. I mean it's not a Stradivarius, but it doesn't even matter as a great cello. But it's something I spend a lot of time with and I know the feel of it and I I have my mom's piano. In my studio, which is something I grew up with, you know, it was in her house for all these years. And... But I'm not sure I would feel as shattered if I broke the cello for some reason. Maybe it's because the object was so simple and so beautiful at the same time and so clear and so ephemeral. I mean, we knew, I think we knew in this project, you know, I don't, some of the, there's still a few intact symbols and maybe, you know Zoe will probably put them in her. Museum of Objects and Materials. I'd love to keep one, but I don't know if I'll play it. But knowing that this whole experience was bounded and there was a kind of life limit to this instrument, I think really got to me.
Zoe Laughlin [00:37:06] I think the thing is it was made to be played and part of it's playing was it's breaking. So it was like, you knew it had a very short lifespan and it's like... Certain things come into the world knowing that they're gonna leave the world quite early and there's a tragedy in that, but you enjoy the moment it's with you. But, you know, I sort of think that about lots of things that they are there to live a life. Like, if you have a sofa covered in plastic so that you never get a scuff mark on it, are you really enjoying that experience of sitting on that chair? You know, you've got shoes you never wear. It reminds me of our relationships to all sorts of things, and that some things get more attention than others.
Tod Machover [00:37:59] Well, and I think you're right. And I think, you know, a work of art, especially music, since it exists in time, is, you know, it's a compressed experience of something that happens in real life. And it could be a relationship, it could be a feeling, but it could be a lifetime. And, you know, often you make a metaphor, a kind of, you know, something imprecise about that, that you express through music, but then the musicians get up and they leave and, you know, you play the piece again. This one, this thing had a life span and it was made not that long ago and we knew it was gonna be over when the piece was over and now the collaboration's over so it wasn't such a metaphor.
Michael Stern [00:38:45] I think for me I feel this element also sort of like an interaction sort of with the natural world where you have a season or you see a flower and you're interfacing with it always changes it. There's so much delicacy in nature and I think this object sort of had something of that where it came into existence and you knew it was sort of fleeting and it was delicate in a way that required a special kind of attention. Um...
Speaker 8 [00:39:17] No. Yeah. Let me just toss out one thought, just a minute. So my dad was an MIT metalurgist.
Tod Machover [00:39:23] I kind of feel like we've said what we want to say, but...
Speaker 8 [00:39:25] It's about taking it to the limit, and the only time I ever saw my dad get sort of wax poetic about the metallurgy, it was all about stress rush, taking things to the limits. But there was one night he held forth about this one sine wave that was the data that was a result of an experiment. And it's talking about material science, I don't think people appreciate the art that's involved necessarily. As a piece of music, that sine wave to him was a perfect eighth note or something. Somehow that seems relevant.
Zoe Laughlin [00:40:06] I think within material science and engineering there's a great tradition of destructive testing as a way of getting to know things. Like you're not going to build a bridge out of something you've never worked out at what point it breaks. And within art there's, you know, a tradition of disruptive art as a way of commenting on things and so I think in this project those things kind of come together in some form or other.
