full interview_nik sharma_1.mp3
Nik Sharma [00:00:00] I'm Nik Sharma. I'm a cookbook author, a food photographer, and a molecular biologist.
Speaker 2 [00:00:06] So that's actually a fairly unique profile to be a clip recorder and a molecular biologist. So tell us, how did that come to pass? Just tell us a little about yourself.
Nik Sharma [00:00:17] Okay, remind me not to say. I started out in... One of the things when I was growing up, I was really fascinated with the kitchen because in the kitchen, when you cook something, a lot of things transform. They change in their shape, their color. For example, if you're cooking an egg, the egg white goes from transparent to white. The yolk starts to form up. And for me, that was just such a fascinating thing just to see unfold in real life. And that's what drew me into the kitchen. But at the same time, it's what also drew me in to the lab. And one of the things studying science in school, you're taught about all these real-life examples, especially this is something that's done with kids where. Easiest examples to teach someone something is what you would see every day. So eggs are one of those examples where proteins change their shape, their color, and then simple things like ingredients like turmeric, which is used in chemistry labs to detect a change in pH. And when you mix turmeric with baking soda or soap, it turns deep red. Turmeric was also something that was kept in the kitchen to add color to food and for me seeing and learning about that was just such a fascinating thing to see science play out in the kitchens but in the Kitchen you don't talk about the science so for me that was quite fascinating and when I started to take courses in chemistry and biology that's what made me put these two different worlds together and made it interesting so when Bye. Decided to When I decided to go to school for graduate studies I decided to specialize in molecular biology. A large part of my training is in microbiology and then biochemistry and a lot of this was driven by food. A lot of the courses I took were also in food. Now granted I'd never worked as a chef and that's something that I also wanted to do, but science just provided a much more stable potentially stable lifestyle down the road and that's something that you know I went with everybody wants to be safe and stable. I came to America for graduate studies and while I was doing research I realized that I really wanted to be a cook and I started a food blog that's how I got into the world of food writing. The food blog led to me actually quitting my job in research I was working at a pharmaceutical company at the time ended up quitting it I'm lodging at a patisserie in California where I work. For about a year and a half and never looked back. I went on to write cookbooks and also write for different media outlets like the New York Times and the San Francisco Chronicle and The Guardian.
Speaker 2 [00:03:17] So does your scientific background, is that fairly uncommon, and does it give you different kinds of special insights into food?
Nik Sharma [00:03:26] I don't know if it is uncommon, but I can speak for myself. It definitely informs my cooking. I definitely don't know if it's common, but my scientific background definitely informs my style of cooking, where I'm coming at whatever I cook. I want to understand what's happening in the kitchen because not only it makes me a little bit smarter, but it also helps me correct mistakes. And often, I'm not the type of person who likes to perform something just because I'm going to perform it blindly. I need to know why it works and why it doesn't work. And so the science helps me get through that. Aspect of cooking and You know down the road it also tells me how I can create different combinations of flavors Textures and food because at the end of the day, no one wants to eat something that's monotonous, right? You get this Feeling of fatigue in your mouth the senses and so you want it to be interesting Why would you eat something? That's boring life is so short and that's one of the things that science helps me To be a better cook
Speaker 2 [00:04:31] So, what have you learned? And what have you offered to the world? Come on. Account for yourself. You're bringing something to the table that's really special. Obviously, much appreciated because your books are widely read. So, just tell us about it.
Nik Sharma [00:04:49] I'm trying to think, I'm trying to
Speaker 2 [00:04:54] So I get what I'm getting, actually I'm getting to your work on flavor. OK. And just maybe talk about how you think about that.
Nik Sharma [00:05:03] I am really passionate about the pursuit of flavor, and that is something that I feel makes food, at least for me, a much more fun experience, and that's what I want to give people. I'm also coming at cooking from a home-cooked perspective. I'm really not interested in chefs, although I've cooked in kitchen. But at the same time, that's not something that I built my career on. I've built my current trying to teach people to cook better at home and make flavorful meals tasty, interesting, and also easy. And one of the ways to do that is the same thing. The way you're taught to appreciate science in school is to look at real life examples. I'm using cooking and science together to teach people how to be better cooks at home. One of the There are several ways to do this and one of the ways I approach it is to just ask people questions. I love doing surveys with my readers and I'll ask them questions. Okay, these are the basic tastes. What is the first thing that comes to your mind? And when you ask them question like that, you start to understand human perception. That's something that I've also trained in. I study public policy at Georgetown, and one of the biggest components of that is understanding human behavior, how people respond to policies and changes in diet, medicine. And you ask people these questions about taste, color. Of their food, the shapes of their foods, and it's really fascinating to see how people are primed to respond to certain things. For example, if you ask people what's the first food that comes to your mind when you think of food that looks white or gray, or is shaped like a quarter lateral, rectangular or a square, and they'll say salt. Sugar was the second option. And these are things that you see every day in the kitchen. So to me, that's fascinating that that's the first thought that comes into someone's mind. The color red, for example, chilies or fruit that's sweet. And that's because apples and strawberries are red. So for me, those are really fascinating things where not only the mind is primed in a way to move in a certain direction when it comes to food, but it also teaches me how people appreciate food when they look at it. And that's something that's so important. That's the first part of eating a meal, is you look at this. The second part of the meal is, and this is for cooks, when we shop at grocery stores or the farmer's market. You're looking at things from a visual aspect. You're look at the shape. You know, the shape of a watermelon is round. You go and buy a watermelon, you tap it to see if it's ripe, you listen to that sound. So sound is such an important component too. And I've spoken to people who have lost their sense of sound and sight. And for me, it's really fascinating how these people have now learned to rely on their other senses to cook and even buy ingredients. There was a gentleman that I spoke to who's blind, he's lost his eyesight and. He started to pay attention to the sound of water from the tap and could tell the difference in temperature. And that makes sense because the density of water changes with temperature. And he was able to perceive that, I can't do that because I have my senses and I take them all for granted. Here was someone who didn't have one of them and then was relying on the sense of sound to work in the kitchen. The other most interesting component of the whole cooking process and also just eating a meal. Sound is one of those things where when you break a potato chip, it fractures. You hear that sound. This is what a lot of companies are looking into, how to make a potato chips not only taste better, but also improve that experience. And when you... See a bag of potato chips being split open, that sound is also calculated and measured by scientists. You've also got the fracturing of a potato chip. That sounds measured. And we bring this into the kitchen. For example, if you make French fries at home, you want them to shadow and crisp. You want that outer edge crispy. You fry fish with breadcrumbs or say semolina. You want the crunch. And that brings me to texture. Texture is another very important component of a meal. If you're having something like porridge, oatmeal, it gets boring really fast because it's the same, smooth, gooey, baby food kind of texture. But if you start adding things into it, like raisins and nuts, it starts to improve the texture. Your mouth doesn't undergo what it's called, it's call fatigue of the palate. And it's more interesting. And so we're doing this constantly in the kitchen, but there's also a scientific basis to this where as cooks, and even the most simplest of home cooks at home is actually performing science. And this is what I find fascinating that even though we're not consciously always making these choices, there is a science that is driving each of these choices humans make when they cook. The art of arranging a meal, for example, I am a visual person, I'm also a photographer, and one of the things that I'm drawn to food is the curves in food. In nature, a lot of shapes are curved. And when I style food for a photo shoot, I'm always looking at curves. I find them very essential, and I find the whole experience of cooking, from buying an ingredient to transforming it to plating it, a very sensual experience. And when people plate food, even at home, there's a certain art to it. And I don't mean people taking forceps and picking up the little microgreens on the plate or connecting the dots with different sauces. I don't mean that. I just mean really simple. People will take a plate. They put rice on it. You'll put a curry or a gravy or something on top of it. And there's a very graceful process that follows where you can see the rice is white. And you have the gravy just flowing down. So even there's movement happening, all these shapes. And food, for example, if you're having something with shrimp, the shrimp curve after a while because the protein changes. So again, to me, all these things are really beautiful and the fact that home cooks are constantly making these choices without. Thinking about them intentionally, I find that extremely fascinating and that's what I try to do with my cooking is not only bring these things in but also repeat the science behind it and remind them that when you're cooking and you're baking a cake and you are pressing it with your finger and to check for doneness and it springs back, there's a science to that. The reason why you cook with a non-stick pan, but you shouldn't use a nonstick pan rather, and you're using something that's coated with aluminum or enamel, there's a science to that. So for me, those are the things that I want to remind people, that this is why you do something. It's not a blind action in there. It's sure it's driven by history and culture. But even our ancestors also did a lot of these things based on trial and error, noticed, made observations, and then changed their methods along the way. So historically, I also find cooking to be a very fascinating scientific process.
Speaker 2 [00:12:10] That's fantastic, and I want to actually double down on that. The whole idea is that I picture a really great cook, and I picture an old lady who has cooked things for 50 years and has learned it from her mother and all that sort of thing, and yet she knows nothing of science. So just talk about that, about sort of what you were saying before. They're practicing science without knowing. Bye.
Nik Sharma [00:12:36] Science, I think the word science really stresses a lot of people who aren't from that world and people who are from that world tend to hold it up to this notion that, and this really bothers me with science in general when we're trying to translate it to people who weren't from that world. Is that it is held to this high standard where it's untouchable, and that really bothers me. And part of my work that I do with my food writing is to act in between and be the middle man to translate that, because knowledge makes you powerful. And I want people to see that our ancestors were doing a lot of these things through trial and error. Testing out new recipes. It didn't work. Okay, what can we do next time to make food last longer, for example? You know, preservation of food was something that was a necessity back in with the ancient Egyptians, for example, where food had to be preserved to last longer so they could get through the extreme climates and the conditions where they were living. So salt was one way to it using sugar with something else that was developed. You know, over so many centuries to preserve food, air drying food. So there's nothing new about a lot of the things we do. We're just improving the technology right now to make it safe or better, you know hold on to those nutrients as well as also prevent bacterial growth and all these other harmful things. The goal of cooking is not only to provide sensuality, it's also nutrition at the end of the day. And I think that's probably the core value of eating and cooking is to provide nutrition. There is everything of the science behind it, or there's a thoughtful act, a conscious, thoughtful act that's being performed. And maybe that it's quite possible that ancestors actually paid more attention to it because there was no one else to give them that knowledge handed down. So they were creating the tools for us today. For example, the fermentation of yogurt. Yogurt's a really popular ingredient in Indian culture, but yogurt. The fermentation of yogurt probably came from Afghanistan or ancient Persia to India because that's where a lot of these fermentation techniques developed and of course over centuries that quickly became such an integral part of Indian culture especially in the northern part of the country where dairy is a very predominant part of many people's diet and from that you you know, Indians have developed. Paneer which is a type of cheese and I hesitate calling it a cheese because then people think it has to be salted and it will you know change its physical shape and it it doesn't melt like regular Western cheeses and paneer is a cheese that's made by curdling milk and you pour an acid into hot milk like lemon juice or lime juice and then you collect the cords that separate the milk solids and you strain it and then you wash several times to get rid of the residual acid so you can't have salt because you wash the salt away. And then what's done is that it's packed, pressed, and put away. Now this process has been going on for centuries and it's, for me, that is one of the most simplest scientific experiments taking place in the kitchen on the phenomenon of proteins changing their shape. So again, you're something that's so ancient. And people have been using chemical and physical agents to bring about protein denaturation. So you've got heat, and then you've got a cooking acid, and they're achieving this change in structure. This allows them to preserve a part of the milk in a way for a longer period of time, and then it also is a concentrated source of protein. So you've got nutrition and then calcium, which is also very important for us. So I find a lot of these processes just fascinating that they're steeped in history, but we forget that a lot of the time there's a science behind it.
Speaker 2 [00:16:40] There's something fundamental, we talked about it in LA and I know you've written about it, this is something basically for us, for our film, is there seems to be a fundamental difference between how flavors combine in Western cooking and Eastern cooking. So just talk about that.
Nik Sharma [00:16:59] Absolutely. I trained in the French style of pastry making. I've never trained in Indian cooking. My knowledge of Indian cooking comes from either reading cookbooks or learning from my family on how to make certain dishes that I grew up with. Beyond that, I have no formal training. What's really interesting, and perhaps this is because I've lived in two different parts of the world, living in India, no one expects the menu to taste like a menu. When you come to America or to the many of the restaurants in the West or restaurants with the Western theme, you often see the menu listed out with the ingredients and it will, I'm just gonna throw this out there. For example, it will say potatoes with toasted cumin. I don't even know if that's the real dish. But... People expect to taste that flavor of cumin and you go to India and the same dish would be called but would be call maybe masala potatoes or something like that and when you eat it you're not expecting cumin and even if you see the cumin on it you are not expecting that you are expecting something other than the flavor of the cumin which I think is quite fascinating because this is where you see a divergence between a lot of western cooking and I would South Asian cooking in general, where you don't have to walk in and expect to taste the ingredients that you're adding. Here they're looking for a combinatorial experience. It's the sum of all the moving parts in that equation. In Western cooking, you're restrained by the idea that I also feel you're biased when you're walking in. You're expecting that. And restaurants do this all the time, so you can see this on menus. You can see it play out. With Indian food and a lot of South Asian cultures in general, there is an explosion of flavors in the mouth. That's highly aromatic. Aroma is much more than taste. I will say that it's the sensory experience of aroma and fragrances. So a lot of Indian dishes and South Asian flavors will include in spices that are extremely fragrant. A lot of South Asian dishes will include.
Speaker 2 [00:19:02] Wait, wait, there's a siren going on. That was good. I'm going to ask you to say it again because it was really good. Just wait for it to go by and then you can finish your thought.
Speaker 3 [00:19:24] Yeah.
Nik Sharma [00:19:26] A lot of South Asian food, in general, is based on an explosion of flavors. So you come in, you eat your meal, and the first thing that strikes you is the look, the visual appeal. We've got ingredients like saffron, we've got the ingredients like turmeric, color is thrown at you in your face. There are a lot of herbs used to bring an explosion of freshness, because a lot of stews in Indian cooking are brown. Brown is probably the most uncomfortable color in food, but it is one of the tastiest foods in general. All brown food tastes better, because of all these processes. Brown food in general tastes better because of these processes of caramelization and the Maillard reactions that take place, which are chemical reactions where sugars are changing their form and they're bringing in bittersweet aromas and flavors. Now we also loves to play with aroma in Indian cooking, so a lot of Indian dishes, more so than taste. I will say that fragrance plays a bigger role in Indian Cooking. Not as much in Western food. You don't walk into Western food and you say, oh, I'm gonna smell, it's gonna be very fragrant. Except for vanilla and now maybe a little bit cardamom, which is popular, there aren't that many aromas that are being played with. In Indian food, when you walk into an Indian restaurant or an Indian home, you can smell your food. It's very visceral, the process. It's in your face, it in your nose. And I think that speaks to the experience where it's a part of your life and your culture. And you're a part of it too, in a way. So there seems to be this open flowing connection between the person as well as the food. And I think that makes for a more wholesome experience. So you've got these flavors from spices that are sometimes very gentle, like in desserts, and then sometimes in curries and in vegetable stir fries and braises, which is another very important component of Indian cooking, where vegetables or meats stewed for a really long time in liquid. You've got these aromas that build over time. Sometimes spices are added at the start to it of a dish, and then sometimes they're added at end. For example, a tadka. Tadka is an Indian technique where you heat hot oil like ghee or coconut oil or some kind of fat, and you throw in spices that are fragrant like nigella seeds or cumin seeds, maybe a little bit of chili pepper for color. And the oil turns bright red, you can smell those aromas, and all these chemical reactions are taking place in the fat, and it's fascinating when you pour it on a dish at the end, which is considered to be one of the most emblematic, I think, in my opinion, experiences of presenting an Indian meal, is to pour this hot oil with the spices over the food, and not only is it so fragrant, it's also visually quite stunning to look at. I think this is where a lot of South Asian food just differs from Western food in that it involves all your senses. You're invited to be a part of it and you're most certainly a part of it too.
Speaker 2 [00:22:27] That was great. So I'm going to just get you to say it in a little more short-term fashion. When you go in to have a Western meal, and it doesn't have to be a restaurant. Imagine a really great Italian. Your Italian grandma just put you in a restaurant, OK? It's like cheese or slush. And that food, you want that Tuesday, and Wednesday you'll have a masala. So, but you expect certain things when you sit down to a Western meal, which is to distinguish the ingredients, and then how that differs from when you sat down to the Indian meal.
Nik Sharma [00:23:07] When you eat European-style food, there's always a defined notion of what to expect. There's a bias, so you walk in and you know what the description is and that's what you're going to get. That's what is delivered at the table. When you eating Indian food or South Asian food in general, you don't know what to expect and this is coming from someone who's grown up eating a lot of this food. I still, when I walk in sometimes, I don't what the spices are, but that's the whole experience of it. It's a combination of all these different flavors and aromas. And when I'm eating the meal, part of that experience is actually trying to sense and figure out what's in there. And I think that's what makes this so special and makes it stand out, is that you have no idea what you're walking into, and it's fun. And not only are you invited to be a part of that experienced, but the meal actually forces you to be apart of it, because all your senses are invited.
Speaker 2 [00:23:58] That's wonderful. So Tuesday, we're going to have an Indian meal. We're going to have a thali. Tell us what that is and what to respect.
Nik Sharma [00:24:09] Do I need to say that on Tuesday? No, no, no. Oh, OK.
Speaker 2 [00:24:15] So, I don't need to mention asthma at all. Later. Okay. Okay. Okay. But just imagine that we're seeing the solid being eaten and all that and we're hearing your voice tell us about living in forests because we're not going to be able to taste and smell it on TV.
Nik Sharma [00:24:34] Thali is one of the most iconic ways to eat food in India. Originally, Thalis were developed in South Asia many, many centuries ago, and then they spread to different parts of the country as people migrate and move. India is also such a diverse country, so you can expect, and it's true, that every state in India has its own signature thali where certain dishes are served. Now what is a thali? Thali is basically a large plate where you have dish, small little containers called katoris, which are usually circular and they're laid out. You also get plates where the shape's already pre-cut into it, so all your food is kept separate, nothing really touches each other. There's a reason for that. A lot of Indian food is either braised or stew, so it's a lot of liquid. A lot curries are liquids, and you don't want the liquids touching each other, right or some kind of flatbread is served with it or some kinda fermented bread like a dosa like dosa or idli is put next to it if you're from the south. If you're the north you'll see flatbreads like roti, naan not so much, puris and a lot of these flatbread are served with or without rice. Rice, maybe they may not be there. And then you've got vegetables that are either stir fried, roasted. Of chard, and then meat dishes. Meat and seafood are also quite common. So you'll see seafood like fish, shrimp. A lot of these dishes are all served together. The way the ingredients are picked out are iconic to the state. For example, I grew up on the west coast of India, so a lot of the food that I eat is seafood-based, meat-based. And. My mother's family comes from Goa, which is another state which is very coastal, but it was a Portuguese colony, so a lot of their dishes are influenced by colonialism. So you'll see that play out. A lot of the dishes are coconut-based. So a tali from there would be heavily coconut- based, where a lot the stews are made in coconut milk. A lot the vegetables are fried or stir-fried with coconut, grated coconut. So that's texture. And then you've got liquids like Kokum, which is a pink coconut milk, a flavored liquid with this spice called Kokum. And it looks rose pink, but it doesn't smell or taste like roses. It's a digestive. So that leads me to the next part of the thali. All the components in the dish not only are representative of where you're from, but there's also a thought process behind it. You've got palate cleansers in there. So you've got little things like a small salad or a pickle that's a concentrated form of flavor. You've gotten digestives like Kokum, coconut milk or buttermilk and then you've got even rice sometimes actually plain rice will act like a palate cleanser cucumbers cucumbers are very important vegetable India's actually originated in India and it's one of the ingredients that you'll see in a lot of salads India doesn't have a lot of salads in general because we eat a lot of cooked vegetables but you will always see cucumber in someone's meal
Speaker 2 [00:27:45] Okay, so that was good. So we don't know exactly the dishes that she's serving, but if you could just simply kick off how each dish has a function, without necessarily going into the exam. Okay. Yeah, so you need to have a paddle cleanser and one's gonna be a digestive, one's going to be the protein, and just sort of walk us through that, because that will work whatever she is observing.
Nik Sharma [00:28:07] Okay, good. Okay.
Speaker 2 [00:28:20] So, okay, so her tally, the tally you're going to use, I think there's 11 dishes.
Nik Sharma [00:28:25] Okay, I've eaten it before, so I think I have a kind of a fair sense of what she would do. The ingredients that go into the thali are quite specific, not in terms of the ingredients that are being used, but in terms of the main components, they all have a special role to play. So you've got palate cleansers in there from fresh vegetables like cucumbers, maybe a pickle, maybe yogurt. And yogurt is another ingredient that will also help cool down the experience of the meal. So yogurts are usually served in the form of a raita or just plain yogurt and it's usually unsweetened. A lot of the dishes might be hot so yogurt helps you move from each one dish to the next. The other thing with the Tali is... Sorry, I'm kind of losing it.
Speaker 2 [00:29:10] That's okay. Maybe just tick off without giving examples because we don't know what we're going to be seeing. And that part of this is, when you're sitting there, you're going to have this conversation in real time. Okay. And she's going to say, oh, you were going to say, where's the pickle? And she was going to say, you got the pickle. But just sort of walk us through, just talk about that. And the other thing if you want to just bring it up, put it in your queue, is how is it served? It's all presented in one.
Speaker 3 [00:29:39] Okay
Speaker 2 [00:29:39] Now you know as she is not going around refilling right? That's the difference so you can say maybe that's how it's traditionally done, but not always
Nik Sharma [00:29:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. There is a thought process to preparing a thali. It isn't a random assortment of dishes on a plate. In the thali, you've got a couple of bowls, maybe four or five, six. You could have as many as you want as long as the plate can hold them. And then each of the components on that plate have a central role to play in the meal. You've got palate cleansers. You've ingredients that cool your body temperature up and down because some of the foods might be hot. Some of the food will have ghee or coconut oil, some kind of fat, which provides energy. So you've got these ingredients that all play a special role in there and you're moving from one component to the other. You've got bread and rice to pick at your meal and grab that curry or the stew and get a lot of that in your mouth or your hands. It's just a very sensorial experience in general. And there is a flow to it, a thought process. Does that work?
Speaker 2 [00:30:45] No, no, that was great. Yeah, just, yeah, just tell us a second. Just tell us what's the fun part.
Nik Sharma [00:30:50] Okay, there is a central thought process to a thali. It isn't a random assortment of dishes on a plate. You've got ingredients that all perform a certain function. Of course, the dishes change from state to state, but you've got things that will always repeat in a certain hidden formula, so to speak. You've palate cleansers like fresh vegetables. You've yogurt which helps cool your body temperature down as you move from extremely hot ingredients to maybe mild. You've got things like bread and rice, which help you grab the stew and get all those lovely juices out there. You've sometimes sweeter things mixed in there, you know, like jaggery, which is unrefined brown sugar. You've that in there which provides a little bit of sweetness to take you away from that heat. You've acids in there which help counteract a lot of the flavors. If you've got Bitter ingredients, again, acids and salt will come in and kind of counteract those flavors. So the entire experience is a whole package. Everything works together and whether intentionally or unintentionally, cooks in India do this all the time. And that's what makes the thali so unique and special. It's not about just throwing something at you. There is a thought process which not only represents the place where the person is from but also the food is driving the science or rather the science is driving the food and it's all hidden in there.
Speaker 3 [00:32:18] And it's crap.
Nik Sharma [00:32:19] And yeah, and it's a very harmonious experience.
Speaker 2 [00:32:22] The reason we first discovered this story is because we think that we're having a theme in one of our hours about harmony, music, architecture. So this seemed to be a really good... Just tell us that fact about Italian harmony.
Nik Sharma [00:32:39] I think some, one of the principle topics, or rather, one of the chief topics that always comes up with Indian food is that it's an explosion of flavor, which actually sounds very disharmonious, right? It sounds like random mad chaos. But if you look at the thali, there it brings all that chaos back in order. You've got a plate on the table, you've got these circles which are quite pleasing to the eye in the form of those little balls, and then you're moving from one thing to another. Maybe sometimes you jump in randomly at a dish, there's no rule to what you take first and last. But it's bringing all of that cohesively together and it's tying it in then. So the thali in general is a very harmonious experience, not only visually to look at but also the way you move around it. So you've got ingredients, or rather dishes, that will cool you off to contract the heat. That's tying it in and making it harmonious. You've got bright red colors then, but then suddenly you've the white color of rice. Again, that kind of gives visually, makes you calmer. And then you've a lot of fresh green herbs and green chutneys, depending on what's on that plate. All of that just ties it in together and it becomes such a very... Essential, yet also harmonious experience.
Speaker 2 [00:34:02] I just have one more question, and if anybody wants to jump in, this has been great, this is exactly what we need. And this is about you and Osma, okay, because we're going to see you eating together. Just tell us about what you know about Osma and what you admire about her and how you know her, that sort of thing.
Nik Sharma [00:34:20] I first met Asma Khan in London when I was visiting London for my first cookbook tour, and she invited me over to her restaurant, Archie in London, and she is... One of the most welcoming, loving people that I've ever met. We'd never physically met. We'd chatted on Instagram like most people do these days. And we'd connected. I knew this was a chef that cooked Indian food in London and a lot of people told me that I should go visit the restaurant. And so when I knew I was coming to London, reached out to her and said, hey, you know what? I'm actually gonna be in your part of the world. I'd love to meet up. And so she invited me over for dinner. I went over for a dinner and she is... Kind of like a chef which is very unusual way to describe a chef but she's a chef that's a warm hug you walk into the room you feel welcome and it speaks to her personality and the genuine kind person that she is she is an open book and i'm an open booked i'm very open about my life i do appreciate that she just shows everything that's happened to all her struggles and her successes which i think is something a lot of people hold back on we always talk about what what we succeeded at, we rarely talk about our failures. And I found, over the years, I've met up after that quite a few times, and I found it to be one of the most genuine people in the food business that's actually interested in making it a better place for people to work. And that's something that's very important because someone who's a minority, unlike her, also immigrated from India to, I live in America, so a different part of the West. We, the struggles that we face are quite different. And so making a name for ourselves is important. But also having that empathy then to help the next person come along is so important. I think she does that, she exudes that. She uses her platform, unlike a lot of people that I haven't seen. She does that in a very genuine, kind and caring way, which makes me respect and appreciate her even more.
Speaker 2 [00:36:20] So I think one of the, and let's follow them up to this, I think Westerners have this idea that Indian cooking, like I said, that's what we're talking about, is somehow like timeless, that it never changes, okay? Is that what Osmo's doing or is Osmo innovating? Just talk a little bit about.
Nik Sharma [00:36:40] There is this notion that Indian food isn't changing. It's quite static and it's steeped in time. But actually, I think that's quite a ridiculous idea because a lot of the ingredients that Indians cook that are really popular right now came to us when the New World was discovered. Those are some of the most important ingredients from chilies, which are considered to be such a huge part of Indian culture. They're not native to India by any means. They came from America, from the Americas. So did potatoes, tomatoes, which again are really important, peppers. So, in that notion, I think it's weird that people do think that, and one of the most important things as chefs and cooks is you introduce people to the vibrancy of a culture because food is evolving over time. My food that I cook isn't the same that I grew up with. Ingredients are also chemically and biologically changing through evolution over time, so It's bizarre to expect that recipes don't. I don't cook over a charcoal stove, neither did my grandmother, she used a gas stove. And so I think steep, I find those parts uncomfortable where, you know, a culture has to be steeped in some kind of ancient history in order for it to be deemed successful. There's a myth and a legend that's built up. And I think people like Asma are doing that in their kitchens. Not only is Asma changing the conversation around the food, but she's also, one One of the things that I really appreciate that Asma does is she brings... Woman to the forefront, which in the Sheffield has always been historically a problem and she's one of the few women chefs who has been on television and has talked about it publicly and saying I'm employing women that are from, that are immigrants from backgrounds where they have been through hardships and I'm going to support them using my business and that's what my business is built on. So rare that you hear about that and that makes me respect more because I. Also grew up gay. And for me, you know, I know about the kid that's always questioning his sexuality, and for me that's so important with my work. I talk about that in my work and, you know, i don't hide who I am. I'm an immigrant too. So I think it's important when people like Asma and me are given a platform just to be open about the struggles that we face, so that the kid, that's growing up next, you, know, doesn't have to feel alone and go through this.
Speaker 2 [00:39:07] All right. Anybody want to? I have a few questions. And you're going to have to look at them.
Speaker 4 [00:39:13] Yeah, you can answer Louie, but just to follow up on the Pali, I was curious if you could speak to when a chef puts a Pali down in front of a diner, is there a specific intention that that person has? Is the diner expected to know if you're eating in India, for instance, what everything is and where it goes, or is the idea to play and discover as you go.
Nik Sharma [00:39:44] When a chef brings the thali out to the table, often they'll explain to you, even if you're Indian or you're not Indian, they'll often explain to what the components on the plate are because there are no labels and even just because India is such a large country and if you're unfamiliar from there, the host always makes sure that you're aware of what you're eating. Some of these dishes in form make you make better choices than based on what you want what you don't want so it's kind of like the
Speaker 2 [00:40:17] No, no, that was a really good start. So, just collect your thoughts and then, uh, just, you know, it doesn't need to be such a lengthy thing, but just, I think, Chris really, you know, we're thinking about somebody who never has seen this meal, okay, okay. What, you know, how, what am I supposed to do, you Bye-bye.
Nik Sharma [00:40:36] When the chef brings the thali out to you at your table, he'll often tell you what the different components of the meal are, not only to inform you what your choices are, but also where a lot of these dishes are coming from, because often thalis are regional, and you need to have that information to kind of understand what you're going to experience.
Speaker 4 [00:40:55] Is there a wrong way to eat thali?
Nik Sharma [00:40:58] There is no wrong way to eat a thali. The most important thing is that you get in there and you grab things and you eat and you take them in different combinations, make those combinations yours. Take the rice, take the flat bread, grab blistered okra or whatever's on their plate and enjoy it. And I would say pay attention, take a moment to not only inhale the food but also just taste it and enjoy that experience.
Speaker 4 [00:41:27] Sure. I have a couple other thoughts. Oh, I'm sorry. Let's see. Yeah, we'll just run through it. And these are just totally unrelated to the bouncing around ideas here. So going to sort of the idea of technology and cooking, was there something, obviously there's been new iterations that come from cast iron to beautiful stainless steel things today. Is there a technology that you're aware of that sort of made new food possible?
Nik Sharma [00:41:55] In Indian cooking or in just in general? Yeah, sure, yeah. Okay.
Speaker 4 [00:41:57] And your experience.
Nik Sharma [00:41:59] Give me a moment. Yeah.
Speaker 2 [00:42:02] It could be a general too, not in the same answer, but part of what we're doing is about how technology has changed creativity in all sorts of fields.
Nik Sharma [00:42:13] Okay, I'll give you an answer on the cooking and then I'll probably add one thing on the thali. Technology has played a huge part in cooking. For example, in Indian cooking, pressure cooking has become such an important way to cook meals from reducing the cooking time and also dealing with changes in altitude. You get a meal that's prepared really fast and for a lot of Indian homes, the pressure cooker is a blessing. They'll have more than one to prepare all these different meals. With tallies, Technology has played a very important role because we've moved from the traditional ways of using dried leaf bowls, which is still quite common, especially for large gatherings. And we've move to stainless steel where it's really easy to just take the plate, wash it, clean it off, and use it again. So technology plays a very important aspect in cooking.
Speaker 2 [00:43:13] What about in just general cooking, have you, in observing across the world, how technology has, has there been a game changer that you're aware of where people just start eating differently after something came in? It could be a microwave, it could be anything.
Nik Sharma [00:43:31] Okay, one of the things a lot of cooks are looking for is consistency. One of the devices, and this isn't by, I wouldn't say it's a new technique. I would say the devices evolved to where it moved from labs to chef's kitchens to home cooks is the sous vide device. And cooking in water, water provides you this thermal. Cooking in water provides you a controlled atmosphere. It's what you use in labs to provide an accurate temperature. You do a lot of reactions in water baths that are heated or cool. And the Suvi device is, I think, one of the most phenomenal things that has been developed over time with technology, where chefs were using this for a really long time, and they still do, to provide consistent. Chefs have been using this for a really long time to provide consistency in results from steaks where they get the exact same medium rare or rare cut that they want and then they just finish it off to get this here on the stove. Boiled eggs. I use my sous vide device to boil eggs at home and I always get the most accurate, precise results without having any worries when I boil an egg. It'll be soft, it will be yellow and tender in the middle. And I think Suvi is one of the, I find Suvi to be one of the most fascinating technological innovations.
Speaker 4 [00:44:57] One more thought that's sort of a very general question. I think of food as an art form, you know, so unique in the way that everybody does it. A hundred percent of people have to make food. It's different than painting, different than music. So what elevates, just because you can tell somebody what you like about food doesn't mean you can make great food. What elevates someone to being a great chef and being a culinary artist?
Nik Sharma [00:45:26] I think what distinguishes people in treating food as an art form versus just eating the meal is being a conscious thought to everything. How you tie it in. So going to the farmer's market, picking those ingredients out, and even the farmer who's growing that ingredient, you know, let's give him a shout out because you're someone who's paying attention, trying to grow vegetables or fruit, any kind of produce, to the best of his abilities and then. Using those ingredients, bringing them to the farmers market, you buy it at the farmers market, from the farmers' market you bring it home, you're storing it in the right way, you're treating those vegetables or fruits well, even meat. And the way you cook it, how much thought process you put into it, you know, playing with those flavors, with those ingredients. Adding new things in, like spices. That's what makes the whole experience beautiful, and that's what make it special. It doesn't always have to be the most cumbersome thing you would go to find, but it's the way that you put all these elements together. And I think that to me is what makes food and the process of cooking an art.
Speaker 5 [00:46:39] So, Nick, sometimes when we tell people that our series is about the intersection of art, science, and creativity and in the same breath, we say, oh, and we're doing a story with Asmukhan and Sharma about Tali, they say, what? Art, science, creativity, all in one. Want to speak to that? Yeah. React. Bye.
Nik Sharma [00:47:04] I'm a very visual person because I'm also a food photographer, and one of the things that I pay attention to is shape and color. For example, a lot of my inspiration never comes from food magazines. A lot of it comes from architecture. I look at shapes and the sights around us all the time. What makes it? Why is my eye moving over there? Why am I paying more attention to this right now than I would than nothing else in the room? You know, why is that standing out and for me that is food at the end of the day Why is the dish standing out at the table? Why am i drawn to it and That's where the science comes in, you know, your eyes, for example, are drawn to something immediately because it's put at a corner, you know, is it a tangent? Is it intersecting somewhere? That's what makes all of this such an important art process, but there's science flowing through it, because even art in general is always a play on our senses, and we're looking at human behavior. You know, that's the whole thing above this, is human behavior, right? You have any part of art, whether it's painting, whether It's music. You're playing with your senses. Food is even in my opinion more interesting because all your senses come into play and it becomes even more fascinating when people who've lost certain senses appreciate food because we yes it's nutrition at the end of the day we need those nutrients but from a behavioral standpoint that's where the science comes in that's what the art comes in and how people are drawn to foods on menus at restaurants and magazines. That is such a fascinating thing, so there is art and science behind this entire process.
Speaker 2 [00:48:37] One of the things when we talk to musicians, everyone, in fact, either we ask or they just volunteer. They said, what is it that sound waves moving through air can make you cry? Can provoke an emotional response. It's like sound waves, moving through the air. What's going on? OK? And it's a mystery, you know? And you're riding under a side storm, figure it out. But what is in about flavors that can invoke that?
Nik Sharma [00:49:07] Sound and taste are two very important things that are connected. And you might have noticed this when you fly on a plane. The sound is louder in decibels, right? It's so loud, but that loud sound actually drives our need for salt. The salt taste buds get activated and you want more salt. And studies have been done, for example, by Lufthansa Airlines where they found that they were selling or using way more tomato, what are they called, tomato drinks? Like VA, what are, they're called tomato.
Speaker 3 [00:49:41] Tomato juice, yeah.
Nik Sharma [00:49:43] So Lufthansa found that they were selling or rather using way more or rather large quantities of tomato juice on flights than they ever did down on the ground and there was a reason for that studies have shown that the taste buds for salt get activated and you're driven towards that and so are our senses for umami which is another taste or the taste of So there is this relationship that goes hand in hand, so when you're eating food and you cut something, you hear that sound, you know, the crunch, it makes you more excited or it might not, it might turn you off. That's also another component of this. So sound and food go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 [00:50:29] So what I'm thinking about, though, is it's parallel. I just use music as an example of sound waves, a scientific phenomenon, a natural phenomenon can produce human emotions. Take that out of the equation. Let's just talk about flavor and taste. They also produce human emotion. When you eat, when we eat, and this is a global, it's got nothing to do with the internet or Italian or whatever, it has to do all those things. What's happening? Something's happening when we food. Yeah, just to talk about the motion of food and what happens when we sit down to eat.
Nik Sharma [00:51:04] Okay. Emotions play a huge component of the entire flavor experience when you're eating a meal. It's what drives us to cook, for example. You know, there are times when you are sad and you don't want to cook and there are time when you really excited to make a meal and you run in there and you get everything out and you prepare it and you scoff it down. But that's, I think, one of the most fascinating things is where our emotions or our behavior is driving an action. And then there's the other side to it too where taste also drives our motions if... You eat something sweet, you're happy. If you eat something bitter or sour, you probably will be turned off a little bit. And then, you know, if you, food also influences the decisions that we make. For example, if eat somethings sweet, you will probably make more positive decisions down the road. If you something sour or bitter, you'll probably make decisions that you aren't too excited about. There is this interplay that continuously occurs between food and emotions, and it's so important to recognize that.
Speaker 2 [00:52:09] Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 5 [00:52:09] In a slightly different way. I sit down at your table, and you have made me a wonderful, beautiful, innovative move, a platter of kind. And I just am welled up with emotion. I look at it, I smell it, and I just want to cry. The same way when I listen to Brahms. What is that about with food?
Nik Sharma [00:52:39] I think with food, what's really important is when we walk into a room and you're looking at the table and you have all this beautiful plated out, it's not only the visual aspect of it, but it's the smell. Smell is the only thing, or rather the aroma, food is the only thing that the memory remembers. It's not taste, it's the aroma. And sometimes it might be so sudden that a certain smell coming from a certain dish might remind you of home or maybe a moment spent with your family or your late grandmother cooking at the table or you were a child and stepping over the kitchen stove just to look and to see what was going on in the pot. When that smell or rather that fragrance comes into play in that room. That sends your emotions spiraling all over the place and that's what makes this entire experience so special.
Speaker 2 [00:53:28] That was it? I have one question left.
Speaker 5 [00:53:31] I have another question also, so go ahead, Drew.
Speaker 2 [00:53:33] Alright, well this is something of a replay to some degree because you have talked about this before, but not perhaps in quite the specific way. The difference, as been stated, I think you knew Britain about it in other sense too, between South Asia and Indian food and Western food, is that the flavors are not necessarily complementary in the same way. Right, that you have in Western. Sure. Right. And I know that, in fact, many sons are actually in opposition. But yet, that still creates a harmonious sort of feeling. Can you talk a little bit about that, those differences?
Nik Sharma [00:54:10] The difference between a lot of South Asian food and Indian food and Western dishes is the fact that disharmony comes into play in the way flavors are chosen to prepare a meal. It's not, I don't think it's intentional. It's probably why people chose to do certain things a certain way, maybe a certain spice over time prevented the growth of bacteria, or it made vegetables more tender, meat more tender. So there are reasons why these things took place. But...
Speaker 3 [00:54:37] Sorry, you need to talk to Louie, don't talk to him. You've been really good, but he's so close to me.
Nik Sharma [00:54:49] There is a concerted effort to be disharmonious when it comes to South Asian food and Indian food in general. I don't think it's intentional. There's definitely a thought process behind it. Maybe the spices or ingredients were chosen to make meat more tender, make it more flavorful, cover some flavors that were not that good. So in that sense, yes, there is a scientific thought process behind these actions that are taking place. But the disharmony that occurs in the food is quite cohesive at the same time because you see the same disharmoney play out in other dishes on the table too. So it feels cohesive. There is a concerted effort to be different in each dish. And because all of those dishes are different, that's what makes it harmonious again. So there is... There is an agreement between the disharmony that's taking place at the table.
Speaker 2 [00:55:49] Can you give an example of Western food that's not too, you know, highfalutin, that where it's like you know what to get and you know the ingredients are and they match, okay, something that wouldn't be what you think of in Indian food in terms of all the mixtures, the masala nature of it. Just give us an example so we know what you're talking about.
Nik Sharma [00:56:12] One of the most iconic dishes in America is the apple pie. And in the apple you've got apples, you've got sugar, you got maybe vanilla, yeah, vanilla or cinnamon, that's probably what's used. And then you've a pastry crust. All those flavors cohesively tie in. You've got the apple, which isn't really a strong aroma by any means. You complement it with cinnamon or a vanilla bean. And then you've got the butter in the pastry, which is probably what adds the next round of flavor. And then, you've the flour as a toast that produces another flavor. But all those flavors are very complimentary. They all work together. It's smooth. You're moving from the crust to the filling, and then that's it. And sometimes, people serve it with ice cream, which is, again, usually vanilla ice cream. So, there's this whole harmony that's taking place, and it flows very smoothly. You don't expect anything to be different.
Speaker 2 [00:57:08] What about like a cheeseburger? Applify is great. Just something that's like you got a meat and you got some cheese on it, right? And they're supposed to be, I assume they're, that's what they're suppose to do. They're somehow related somehow. In a way that you wouldn't necessarily do that in.
Nik Sharma [00:57:26] Take the example of the hamburger. So you've got the meat that's cooked in a patty and then the meat's seared. It's usually flavored with some kind of savory ingredient, maybe soy sauce sometimes or Worcestershire sauce. There's some kind a savory component added to play again on the savory taste in it. You've got mustard or ketchup, which are sweet and hot in their own way. And again, that plays to the savoriness of the meat. You've got the burger bun, which is mildly sweet. Some might even say it's tasteless. And then you've got lettuce, tomatoes, and onions, which, again, all play towards the savoriness. So in a burger, you're moving towards savorness. And all the ingredients push you towards experiencing that meat flavor at max.
Speaker 2 [00:58:12] That's what you're looking for. That would not be the case. If an Indian was somehow making a hamburger, which of course they do, but you're not hearing about it.
Nik Sharma [00:58:20] Now, on the other hand, if you go and have a burger in India, it will not be the same. You would find the burger containing a bunch of different spices, where they're not at all looking towards improving the umami or the savory flavors in the meat. They're looking to create a crazy, fun experience, and that's what makes it so different from a western-style burger.
Speaker 5 [00:58:48] Can you write about the first experiences you had cooking with your mother-in-law? Which was very different perhaps than the experience you had cooking with your own.
Nik Sharma [00:59:02] Yeah, my mother doesn't cook. My first experience in America, which for me is really specialist cooking with my mother-in-law. My mother- in-law lives in the south in Virginia and cooking with her has been a very good way for me to learn American food from someone's home, which is something that for me would have been so rare. And learning how to cook with her is really interesting because I see the way she strives to flavor her food is so different from the way I strive to flavor my food. And she... Is very restrained in a use of spices. Here I come in and I toss things in without really paying attention and I just see where it goes. She is very decisive in the actions that she makes. And I think that again is human behavior playing out. It's really fascinating just to see two different people from different parts of the world and very often approaching the same ingredient in a different way. We both make French fries at home, we both season them differently. I need like a little bit more, she needs a little less. I think it's fun, and it's just really fun to see us both approach the same thing with different actions.
Speaker 2 [01:00:14] All right, do you have another one?
Speaker 5 [01:00:15] Um, I just, um, because I think we will, we may need this in a more specific way. The notion of flavor compounds, for which there might be a more viewer friendly word, that in Western cooking the flavor compounds tend to be similar, built on similar compounds. In Indian cooking, the flavor comes. Compound of why do we bury. So without examples, sort of that basic point that you make writing about spices and how Western and Eastern salvation cooking varies.
Nik Sharma [01:00:56] Okay. At the end of the day, all ingredients are chemicals, and they're built out of different flavor molecules and different compounds and substances that provide color, they hold shape, they provide smell, they provide the taste. And this is what makes the entire process of cooking so fascinating when you look at it from the entire globe's perspective. In countries that are in Asia and South Asia, you'll find spices being used quite heavily. And In the West, spices play a much more limited restrained role. It's quite fascinating because everybody's trying to achieve the same texture. For example, everybody cooks potatoes very different. But they're all cooking potatoes. Everybody loves meat and potatoes. And the way they come to that final endpoint, or rather that final product, is what makes this entire process of flavoring a dish so fascinating, because... In Western food in general, there is a tendency not only to be restrained, but also select ingredients that pair with the dish really well. They complement those central ingredient flavors really well, and then everything works in cohesion to support that role. In Indian cooking and in South Asian food in general, everything goes haywire. It's not meant to support anyone. Everything comes together at the end, that's true, but there is no intent to, oh, I need to build up the savoriness of this dish or the sweetness of this fish by adding something that's also sweet. And that's what makes it so special because you're walking into the room and you don't know what to expect.
Speaker 2 [01:02:32] Why do you co-
Nik Sharma [01:02:34] Why do I cook? It's a bit of both. I like to cook because cooking is what makes me happy in the kitchen. It's when I walk in. For me, it's such a thrill process where I'm involved cutting something. I'm You know, sometimes I destroy food, I don't make it properly, and then sometimes I make it really well, and that's what excites me the most because I'm learning along the way. Even if you make the same dish 10 times, every time you make it, it's a different experience, and you learn something new and you tweak it a little bit. For me, that's the science in there. That's what makes it so special. So I'm driven by the science of cooking, but also by the pursuit of flavor.
Speaker 2 [01:03:14] And when you cook something that you've never cooked before and you present it to your partner or friends, whatever, and they like it, how does that make you feel?
Nik Sharma [01:03:27] When they like it. It makes me feel happy, but sometimes I do wonder if they're just saying that because it's me. But at the end of the day, yes, that's the whole goal of cooking. Not only do you want to feed yourself, but you also want to make people feel happy when they eat a meal. No one wants to be sad. So that is the most rewarding aspect at the of a meal is that someone walks away, not only satisfied from the experience, but also walked away joyous. And that is important to me.
Speaker 2 [01:03:52] And do you ever feel like, they all love it, it's great, but you're saying, you know what, next time I'm going to speak with a T.V.
Nik Sharma [01:04:03] There are times when people say they like a meal that I cooked, but I'm not too happy with it. I don't know if they're saying that just because it's me, but, I know the next time I'll make it, I'll tweak it a little bit more. But again, that's a really important part of cooking because you have to also listen to the people that are eating your food, the people who come to your restaurant and try your food. You need to appreciate the user experience, so to speak, and use that information to drive your cooking and make that meal better the next you do.
Speaker 2 [01:04:31] I actually have one more question for you. Sorry, it's because you're really good. It's because your really good, so you really love... You're really good.
Speaker 4 [01:04:37] Are you glad there's one more? I have just one more, too. OK.
Speaker 5 [01:04:41] So we are going, I think it's tomorrow, I don't know if it is, we are going to the spice shop. When you go into a shop full of spices, some new, some different, what's the first thing you go for? What are you looking for? Something familiar, something brand new.
Nik Sharma [01:05:03] This is not in reference to just in Indian stores, but just in general.
Speaker 2 [01:05:05] When I go shopping for spices. Is that right, Mary?
Nik Sharma [01:05:14] Okay, when I walk into a spice store, the first thing that I'm looking for are obviously things that I am running out of. And so I need my standard staples filled up, those jars need to be complete. The second thing that am looking for is something to satisfy my experimental curiosity. What is something new here that I haven't tried before? Is there a salt that's flavored? Is there type of sugar that I've never tried? Is there different type of saffron that's available? Perhaps a different type of spice that I've never heard of before. But I want to learn more about it and then would I be able to use it can I bring it into my kitchen so those are the kind of thoughts that go through my mind if I clearly have no idea of what that ingredient is I'll ask the storekeeper hey you know do you have suggestions on how to use this what can I do with it what is the best way to cook with it and getting that information from people who are experienced with an ingredient more than I am then helps me get ideas on how I and bring that back home and use it in my cooking.
Speaker 4 [01:06:14] Can I just ask the most global of questions, backing away from all this? And not just as a chef or a scientist, but as a member of the human experience. What do you suppose is creativity?
Nik Sharma [01:06:29] What is creating going at the top? Creativity, be it whether you're from the arts or the sciences, is a quest to answer something. And at the end of the day, when I'm cooking, I'm trying to answer certain questions in my head. I'm trying to use... Different ideas, different tools that are at my disposal to answer a question. It's philosophical in a way. I'm trying to shave that to get towards the truth. I'll never get there, but I may get 95, 99% closer, and that's what creativity is. We're all using different tools to come to a certain point to get an answer. In cooking, you could define that perhaps by how a dish feels, how it looks, the textures, the flavors. But the process to get there is where the creativity comes in. What kind of tools am I going to use to get there, what kind of combinations of ingredients or flavors, what kind ingredients will play out. And I think that is the creative process to me with cooking and science.
