full interview_tolgahan cogulu_1.mp3
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:00:00] My name is Tolgahan Çoğulu, and I'm a guitarist. I'm musician. I've been playing the guitar since I was 12.
Speaker 2 [00:00:10] Um, so let's just start broad and then we'll kind of get into there. So explain to me what microtonal music is.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:00:19] Microtones are any tones less than a semitone. The classical western music is based on 12 tones per octave, 12 semitones. But microtones, are any tone less than semiton. It is infinite and microtonal music has many genres. Like, just intonation is the natural tones of the harmonic series. For example, it's microtone music genre. Renaissance and baroque tunings mean tone temperaments the renaisance harpsichord music is based on a tuning system which is completely different than today's system or a microtonal traditional music of the world like turkish macan music persian arabic indian raga music balinese indonesian gamelan music some chinese thai vietnamese japanese some african some in France, Breton music. These are all microtonal traditional music cultures that can be entitled under microtonal music. And also we have spectral music, electronic music, avant-garde music, microtone popular music nowadays. So these are the genres.
Speaker 2 [00:01:38] Where does Microsoft Music sort of fit on the broader landscape of music, because we think of it as sort of Western and Eastern. Do you think of is that way? Is it different than Western?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:01:51] It was already Western during Renaissance and Baroque era, but after the Baroque era, starting from the classical period of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, it becomes maybe, let's say, less Westernized because, you know, the music gets standardized with the current 12-tone per octave system. But in many cultures of the world, it's already Microsoft music is in our culture, for example. You wake up with a call for prayer in a microtonal mode in sabah makam. So five times a day we have been hearing since I was born in Turkey. So it is the culture here but it's not an alien thing for the western music. It was already there in renaissance and baroque era but then maybe standardization Human rationale wants this and also maybe capitalism wants it as well because you have to standardize the instruments to sell it and make billions of dollars. You have to standardize the piano to 12 tones per octave or the guitars. So now it's a big sector, you know, one of the sectors that people earn billions of dollars so that's, they're all interrelated in my opinion.
Speaker 2 [00:03:13] It sounds like microtonal music is widespread, maybe not in the West, but at least started there and moved all over the world in terms of that mass production. Why isn't there, why previous to the work you did, more access to a microtonally instrument?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:03:32] Ask me again.
Speaker 2 [00:03:33] Why why you so we're going to talk about the need that there was for you to create a microphone guitar If the idea is they have to standardize it so they can sell more So they pick the western guitar That's why most guitars are western Why was it sounds like there was a lot of popularity in microtonal music and that there is So why wasn't that standardized as well? Do you know?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:03:59] You mean the microtonal guitar is not standardized. This is a difficult question. Actually, how can I? Let me see. Why microtonally guitar is that standardized?
Speaker 2 [00:04:18] And you may not have an answer. This might be like an industry insider question. So I can move on. But.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:04:25] No, okay, move on, but maybe ask me something related that I can answer.
Speaker 2 [00:04:31] Sure, sure. Let's start here. So, you were eager to get in at the very beginning about what drew you to the microtonal guitar in the first place. So please tell me what that was.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:04:42] There were many, there were several motivations behind designing my own microtonal guitar.
Speaker 2 [00:04:49] Can you, was that, you just call it out by the way if that's, if that too noisy, okay?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:04:53] They're the passing cars.
Speaker 3 [00:04:55] Yeah, it was. It was. It was another car and there were people crossing from the back side. I also heard them. But it wasn't like too much distracting, but the last one was. Okay.
Speaker 2 [00:05:06] But the last one was okay so when it becomes too much tell me yeah thank you so sorry if you would
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:05:12] There were several reasons behind designing the microtonal guitar, my own one. The first one is of course to play my own music on the guitar as it should be. With the micotones, with the ornaments, with tuning system it requires. So that's of course one of the main motivations. But the second motivation is I'm interested in the music of Renaissance and Baroque as well. So I play Bach for example in one of Bach's pupil's students, Kinberger's tuning system. So you know in baroque and renaissance era there are many several tuning systems so early music is another motivation. Then I am also interested in natural tones which we call just intonation music. Any vibrating string in nature creates harmonic series which goes infinity And these are all microtonal ratios. So you can, again, play this. And also, I did my master's and PhD at Istanbul Technical University Center for Advanced Studies in Music, which is very specialized in today's music, new music, contemporary classical vessel music, which needs a huge palette of new sounds. So these were all several motivational aspects behind my adjustable microtonal guitar design.
Speaker 2 [00:06:40] So you talk about wanting to hear your own music. I find that to be really profound. Can you talk to me about what that means to you to hear the music of where you're from?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:06:53] Yes, as I told, since I was born, I wake up to a call for prayers in a very special microtonal mode, which we call... Sorry, let's...
Speaker 3 [00:07:06] I'm sorry, let's start this one over again, because, like, they kind of have it.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:07:12] Since I was born, I woke up in some mornings to this microtonal beautiful mode in sabah makam. Sometimes at five, at six in the morning, then we have a major cheerful mode in lunchtime, at noon. So anyway, and during my childhood, radio was a big thing. And, you know, it was all these urban, traditional, makam music. In Turkey we are so lucky because we have many Anatolian folk music genres. And also, as well as urban traditional music which can be called classical Turkish music or Ottoman Turkish makam. So we have two traditional music genres, which is like classical Indian music as well. So I grew up with those tunes, but I also grew up in the 80s in Istanbul, which opened its doors to capitalism. Many, you know, goods, toys, everything enters the markets. And I was listening to Michael Jackson first. Michael Jackson came to Istanbul, to the stadium where I live. Then Metallica Guns Roses came and I went to those concerts. You know, it was all a mixed thing. And that's why I've been so motivated to playing the guitar. Guitar is my instrument. But when you combine your music with the guitar, something doesn't work. You cannot play it. Those tones are not there, so the music is not there. And so... That's my intention, because you know, otherwise I would have played a traditional Turkish music instrument, bağlama, tambur, and I could have played my own music, but I'm a guitarist. I love the timbre of the guitar, the sound of the guitars, so, but with the microtones, with the ornaments, with styles that my music wants, the ten thousands of traditional music... Because I play the guitar, it's polyphonic as well. So it's like a microtonal Macan polyphony. It's great. So those were my motivations.
Speaker 3 [00:09:38] And um i'm sorry yeah remember nothing touch the mic again sorry sorry two times
Speaker 4 [00:09:44] Whoo! You can get in closer if you need to, because you can see on these monitors that you have lots of room. So.
Speaker 2 [00:09:59] I just want you to kind of expound on a really interesting background on what was happening in Turkey and from a broader perspective, but what does it feel like for you when you play music that you remember since you were a kid?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:10:21] It's special, I remember those times, we don't have TV, 80s, of course we have TV but radio, because there was only one channel, state channel, radio was always on and I remember those dusk times around before dinners, a bit depressive, no lights, a little gray, like now. And radio is on classical Turkish music because my dad is a director and he's been directing classical Turkish Music programs so that's his favorite genre so it's always the radio is on and I it keeps coming those a bit gray a bit depressive but also nice President Nice together Nice where the radio is on I don't know what I'm doing, but the music is on, my ears listening, maybe I'm playing with my toys, maybe doing something else, but so it's in my ears and now that I'm playing those tunes with my favorite instruments, maybe sometimes revokes those feelings, I don't know.
Speaker 2 [00:11:39] Very interesting. You really set a mood for me. I can picture it.
Speaker 4 [00:11:46] You have lots of room. You want to go closer. Just check out this monitor, and as long as you're not in this shot, you're good. So you've clearly...
Speaker 2 [00:11:55] It's interesting to hear that because you've clearly passed something on to your son. I mean, a number of things it seems like, but he plays guitar so beautifully, guitar in particular. Was there some connection between the music, that scene you just described for me as a kid, and what you're trying to impart to your sons?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:12:20] Yes, it's interesting, I sometimes see myself on Atlas, maybe this is a natural thing, maybe every dad sees one part of themselves on their kids. But you know, sometimes it's weird, like, my sport is table tennis. And now Atlas is very good at only table tennis, so, or what else? Like, you know, ah, um... Okay, that's weird, a bottle cap collection. I never motivate Atlas, but it was my, I had three big collections when I was kid, Atlas H. Bottle cap collection, collection like Cocks, Pepsi's, sodas, whatever, the alcohols, rocker, whatever. And I have. A cigarette box collection. I hate cigarettes and I never smoked but I had a cigarette box collections somehow. I couldn't solve it. What was my third collection? I forget but I have a big third collection. Anyway but when Atlus was six he starts collecting bottle caps and starts the collection. So I find myself laying all the bottle caps on the living room. Pepsi, Fanta, Yedigün, the Turkish ones. And so it was where I lived 30 years ago in Istanbul. So, but you know, I never say collect bottle caps. So these are interesting things. Some comes naturally, some comes of course, you know I've been playing guitar since he was born. So every day I played somehow like 10 minutes, an hour, two hours. So I think music comes. As a result of this, because, you know, music is everywhere in his life. So some comes naturally, some he sees in myself. It's complicated to analyze. Yeah, it's interesting, father-son relationships is really surprising all the time.
Speaker 2 [00:14:34] That was going to be my next question, is it sort of, just because you like music, or your dad plays guitar, doesn't mean that you can do it, but clearly there's some creativity that he has that you share. What do you think about your son's creativity?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:14:53] I can assure you that he's more creative than me, so that's because you know it is he has that motivation that I don't have towards creativity because you can concentrate on the creativity just that for hours while writing his own graphic novels while composing in bed before sleeping. Try not to sleep and try to compose. These, you know, I don't have these things, mine is maybe more human made, but it comes natural now with Atlas. I hope it will continue. Maybe, you know, he's gonna give up. He's one of the Z generation kids, keeps watching, you know YouTube every time, addicted to the social media, addicted to the games, so maybe he will stop one day, but as far as it goes, it's going in a more creative way. Surprisingly, because, you know, as you say, sometimes is a reaction they don't want. So, you now, he started the piano. He never touched on the guitar and I never teach him. Then after two years of piano, he says, ah, he starts to play the guitar. So when we designed the Lego guitar, he just started two months past. So he played it very badly, but then he forgot about the piano and Guitar becomes his passion, but it was a natural. And I never teach him guitar. You know, fathers, in my opinion, cannot teach instruments to their sons or to their daughters mostly, that it's not possible. So my friends helped Atlas show some techniques. Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 2 [00:16:47] But you have such a clear bond, why is it so hard to teach?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:16:51] Yeah, it's also, you know, father-son psychology. I'm sure there's a place in the psychology, there's the name for this. So it's hard to sit like, teach something like a teacher. You cannot have this relationship with your... Because, you now, he already has this at school for eight hours a day, which is a bit, you, know, too much for him. When he comes home, he's a king. He doesn't want that relationship with his mom or his dad.
Speaker 2 [00:17:21] So what was that like when you came up with this idea for the Lego microtonal guitar? Tell me about how that occurred.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:17:30] It was so surprising because you know I was I always think adjustable microsoft guitar i designs and the next step was automatic so you know i was trying to collaborate with the engineers mechatronics engineers trying to get funding for the automatic so no way this lego was a full surprise so and when he gave the idea you know I think, as maybe most of the fathers say today. This is not new. We have thousands of Lego guitars in the world. So that's my initial reaction but then It was a miracle that we checked out all the letters carefully together on YouTube and see that No one had tried because no one had issue with the Micros on in Europe in the US Because that's where most of the Lego guitars comes up We have an issue about the fretboard here. So yeah, it was nice coincidences. Some two or three coincidences overlap, and it happens. If they didn't, maybe nothing would happen. And I was so concentrated on the automatic one.
Speaker 2 [00:18:51] I just want to take a step back before we kind of continue down this road. So, so you in 2008 created the first microtonal guitar. Adjustable. Adjustable microtonally guitar. Can you just tell me that story real quick?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:19:04] Yeah, I was doing my Ph.D. At Istanbul Technical University and I had many several projects, Astor Piazzolla project, you know I was playing the standard guitar, but I was also interested in new music, so some different crazy techniques on the extended techniques on guitars, I was interested in. One of my projects was designing a guitar and I have a research about the history of the microtonal guitar. So, you know, on YouTube, you can type the history of the Microsoft guitar and I am, you know, telling you in 10 minutes everything about it. And I know it well that there are channel ideas in Paris in 1842, Lacoste guitar. So I think, okay, let me apply to the university, technical university, to get the funding and to replicate this La Cote guitar. And also there's one more luthier that I should mention, Walter Voigt from Germany. 140 years later than Lekot, we created similar guitars. So I also know that guitar very well. So I replicate those two guitars. But while doing, then you know, I get the funding. So if I hadn't get the fundings, there was no project. So it was luck. Then, the luthier I worked in Istanbul, Ekrem Özkar, a great luthiers. I told him that, different than those guitars, we can have, you know, you can insert the frets and remove the fret, if they have this, it's gonna be a big thing. And then when it happened, it was the first miracle, because it was an improvement for the microtonal guitar history. And in 2009, when the guitar was completed after nine months, it will like, you now, the Greek Titan Atlas. All the world was on my shoulders because I see the potential and the potential was infinite possibilities so I see what shall I do how can I do these infinite things how can i prove myself and how can show this guitar to the world introduce this guitar to the worlds but since 14 years day and night I've been working on this and now I can say that Now the guitarist knows about this guitar, so after 10 years I've fulfilled my objectives, but it takes 10 years.
Speaker 2 [00:21:38] And what happens if there is no instrument to play music? I'm fascinated by this idea that music can be lost over time if the instruments to play it are no longer there.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:21:52] Maybe to answer this question, it's the vice versa. I mean, when I had this adjustable microphone guitar, Neer Instrument. I know the music history well, quite enough that I know how it's going to survive, the instrument. Because you know, Schubert, Franz Schuvert composed a great piece for an instrument called arpeggione. It's a violin cello with frets. But it was the only piece that's known, and then arpeggione died. No piece, no music, no instrument. I read about that. I knew it. So for 10 years, I only concentrated on music. I don't waste time. Over 40 composers composed for me. So creating repertoire, I arranged videos, social media, so that was that was the plan.
Speaker 2 [00:23:01] Well, and you achieved it in terms of the microtonal music. I feel like there's an end to that thought about the sonata. What's the broader idea there of, I mean, is that a tragedy when something beautiful is made and then there's no longer a way to replicate it or build upon it when it's just lost the time?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:23:23] I think there's a tragedy when you have a great idea and then you realize that great idea but somehow you lost your motivation maybe because of the criticisms maybe because of the ignorances or maybe you you lost you life and no one. So that's a big tragedy. So I was quite lucky that I managed to live for 14 years with full of my energy dedicated to this instrument. And I managed to see today that, you know, what happened in 14 years and my objectives have been fulfilled. But the tragedy is, as I say, for example, my friend in Brighton, Jeffrey, has an amazing piano, Marca's old piano. It's called Fluid Piano, but it's so expensive and that's why no one can get it, so no music or few music, so now it's going to maybe go extinct, but it's an amazing, so that's a tragedy, that's the loss for the music world. So luckily it didn't happen in my case.
Speaker 2 [00:24:34] Well, of course there's two halves to it. You can have the idea, but then you've got to make it. And so, could you, just as it relates to the Lego guitar, you had to find a ruchim to create this thing. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:24:50] It's always teamwork, so in my first design, it was the luthier that I found in Istanbul, Ekrem Özgarpat. Thanks to him, I still have a great guitar. And then it's Ruhsen Canacet. Thanks to his genius, we realized Atlas' idea on the guitar in an ideal way. Because, you know, the first idea was, okay, let's take off the fingerboard. Before finding Ruchin and let's tape, let's glue the Lego pieces and play it. So and it didn't work because it's, you know, the guitar is 500 years old with an amazing geometry, mathematical ratios. So you know you need science and Ruchan brought the science and the genius to the project. So I was so lucky to realize it because you know today Finding an idea at first seems the most important thing, but I now I disagree the idea Maybe is very important. But when you see the it's in long term It is the beginning maybe 20% of it, even though it's a revolutionary idea The rest of the 80% is how do you make it widespread? How do you show it? How? Shout and people hear. So that's 80%. So you know never give up and give all your energy so don't say okay my idea and it's been realized I'm getting the patent and that's it. So there's 20% in my own experience. It's for both lego guitar and for both adjustable guitars. So it's the beginning.
Speaker 2 [00:26:44] Ideas are cheap as the saying goes.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:26:46] Yeah.
Speaker 2 [00:26:47] It's interesting. So when it comes to creativity, that seems to be the equation as you recognize it, that you have the idea which comes from maybe an esthetic or a design perspective, but then you have to execute on it, which seems to come from an engineering standpoint. Can you talk about those two elements as part of creativity?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:27:12] Yeah, of course, the idea comes with your background, with the research, you know, it's not coming like Isaac Newton, you know, the apple drops. Because Newton has the background, you know, he gives the meaning. So it is similar. I made a huge research about the history of microtonal guitar and the history of the guitars and then came up with my design. And then execution is a pain. It's a big pain that you have to overcome, be very patient, never give up, you know. And Lego guitar also the same. Idea is good, but then we failed in the first trial. It didn't work. I could have given up and, you know, forget about it and do my own stuff, but then never give it up and try other possibilities, leave it for cooking. Leave it to cook for a few months, or a few years, like the automatic guitar. We tried several designs, several monies evaporated and you know with several engineers, people, it's hard to deal with people when I'm a musician so it's hard to do with for example the CNC operators. I say I'm going there, I'm giving a composite material to cut a hole. Along the fretboard. But he says, come on, I don't have time, because he's going to cut a maybe $10,000 project in five minutes. So you know, you are getting your little thing to have an experiment with the $50,000 CNC. So these are very difficult times. But you know, when you have the motivation, when it's very motivated about your idea and projects, you never give up. Sometimes you let it cook and you get it back after a year and give your energy back.
Speaker 2 [00:29:20] One of the comments made by one of the judges of the music competition, or the instrument competition rather, that you guys won last year, was that the hallmark of a great design is that you know exactly how to use it once you look at it. Can you talk about the kind of quiet brilliance of what Atlas did to come up with this idea that I think that is exactly right? You look at and you understand exactly how it's supposed to work.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:29:49] Yeah so there are many lego guitars in the world everyone is doing a guitar or you know some instruments out of legos some are not playable okay if they are not playable forget about it so that's that's the course so if it is playable let's talk about the function. Does it bring a new function to the music, to the guitar? Or does it sound the same? Or a bit, you know, let's talk about the function. So Attas' idea brings three upgrades to the guitar history. So that's crazy. Three functions, so not only one function. So to play microtones, very in a few seconds, any microtone that you want. To teach kids music theory in a fun way with the LEGO most popular toy meets most popular instrument of the world. So you can even teach standard guitars to the kids by having fun. And the third way is having thumb frets fretless. Three functional upgrades I think makes it unique. If you don't have those functions I think not that important. It's like a nice looking guitar.
Speaker 2 [00:31:19] One of the elements we try to explore is where arts and science lie in education, both in America and around the world. First of all, is Atlas in a school, or is he being educated in a way that combines, recognizes both arts and science, STEM, as we call it? No
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:31:44] I'm aware of STEM, but it's mostly in some high schools and universities.
Speaker 2 [00:31:50] What is your general feeling about those things being combined in education?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:31:55] I think it is the education of the 21st century. Science, technology, arts, all together. We are in the digital age, visual age. Kids at last stop reading, learning by watching. That's a different age. I learned by reading. That was my experience. They learned by watching, so they It should be all together, all new approach. Also, you know, guitar education, maybe it can start, the standard guitar education starts maybe in the first six months on a lego guitar. Then they can have the standard guitars or maybe after four years they can get the lego guitars back with microtonal music and with the fretlessness, to get used to the fretlessness then get the fretless guitars. So, anything is possible. In today's world, I believe
Speaker 2 [00:32:58] Speaking of which, do you think that there's competitions to create new instruments as in make sounds that have never been heard in history, using digital technology, using AI, how do you feel about that? Does that excite you, the idea that instruments to make music that's never been hurt are being created?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:33:19] Of course it excites me. I'm always looking after now new music and I find micro-tonality is a big part of the future of music. But the future is already happening now because now I'm seeing an Australian rock band King's Desert and the Little Wizards playing micro-solo rock with micro-solos guitars, bass guitars. So it's already happening. So, you know, 10 years ago in some of my lectures, I say microtonality is the future of music. But now in after 10 years, we are having many examples. So it's already happening. And so new instruments with new sound timbers, really important for the new music. But for the newly instruments, my criteria is always playability and having many white palettes of making music. For example, if you design a very crazy digital instrument, but you know, the only sound that you get some low frequency like
Speaker 4 [00:34:31] Oh
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:34:33] like a synthesizer thing with you know changing the frequencies. This is for me a little bit limited. I think it should be it should have more wide range and more playable than you know you will have repertoire. I think you always have to think about when you design an instrument Can I have unlimited repertoire? For example, microtonal guitars can have unlimited Turkish makam music repertoire on it or any microton guitar repertoire on its. Unlimited. But when you have very limited things, then it's limited.
Speaker 2 [00:35:23] It's very interesting to hear, I mean it sounds like you're saying that history repeats, that we're constantly going back to the days of old and that that becomes fresh again, or reiterating something. I mean, in your words, what is this continuum of creativity that we're all living in?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:35:47] Yeah, today's creativity is something like, you know, thanks to internet and thanks to social media, everyone is creating something. Today, for example, I'm sure one million video has been released with some creative stuff in it, musically, cinematographically, whatever. So it's a crazy age, but of course, a cold. Some art movements we cannot say now like I mean my motivation is of course maybe after 50 years after my life I'm sure I hope there will be for example a microtonal guitar repertoire tradition for example from turkish polyphonic makam music tradition on the guitar musical occult. If this happens, that's great because now everyone is creating something but to have its its footstep on the arts takes time, takes some years and takes many creativity and hard work and many people involved in it. So what I'm trying to do with my competition, with the is all trying to involve as much as as much guitarists inside this pot for a long-term a course
Speaker 2 [00:37:28] Alright, last question. The simplest and hardest, which is what I've already asked you, which is, what is creativity?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:37:37] Creativity of course this is what is creativity is the hardest question ever i can say for my experience creativity is
Speaker 4 [00:37:52] I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Ah! Sorry, I...
Speaker 3 [00:37:57] I'm sorry. Yeah. Thank you.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:38:00] This is the hardest question ever. What's creativity? For my own personal experience, giving a meaning to life, for my life, creativity is giving my life a meaning. Because, you know, when you think about, in the widest possible term, like Big Bang, 14 billion years ago, and the universe. Uh, trillions of planets, stars, whatever, you know, our life, the life of homo sapiens is or maybe less than us. So we all try to give meaning to our lives by because, you know, when you move up to universe and look, it would be hard to motivate yourself, it Ben you stay in your area, stay in the balcony, and try to give meaning to life for me. Creativity really gives meaning to my life by motivating me, by filling my gaps, my life philosophy gaps. Because, you know, once I create something and share it and see that it's been appreciated. For example. Last Sunday, seven days ago, in the morning, I was in Amsterdam and I recorded something short by the by a canal in Amsterdam. And this morning I see that it's been viewed more than 200,000 on Instagram. So it was on a microzone guitar, it was a nice piece, an original tune. So, okay, that gives me a motivation because, you know, I created an instrument, I worked hard for that piece to work well on that instrument. I played it in Amsterdam and people liked it and people applauded it, so you know. Series of creativity and the results motivate maybe my ego, motivates myself, motivates my life things. So it's all together because it gives a meaning to my life and it makes me happy somehow. You know, I know myself well, so I know how to be what makes me happy, what makes be motivated, what gives me energy. And I think creativity is one of the very strong pillars that gives meaning to my life. I cannot think about my life without creativity because it's one of my main pillars.
Speaker 2 [00:41:08] One more question, sorry. I just wanted to ask you about play. Because playing with Legos was what spawned this whole thing. Is that important, that sense of play for creativity?
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:41:21] I don't understand. Play for creativity?
Speaker 2 [00:41:24] Yeah, as opposed to having a goal and going straight toward it, just having a sandbox, having a box of Legos, just playing without a purpose, and the creativity that comes from that.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:41:36] I see. Yeah, playing and enjoying the creativity is what I observe on Atlas, you know, that's pure creativity because he's enjoying it and he has no intention of sharing it. He has no motivation about his social media. He is a social media that I'm controlling but he has no interest in his YouTube channel and in his Instagram accounts. And I tried to record Atla so much, but now he stops me, he refuses. So it's so hard to record him as well. Sometimes he lets me record, sometimes rarely. So as you can see, our motivations differ vastly. Like maybe I'm creating for fame, for getting appreciated, for more views, clicks. You know, maybe I am... That's me, that's my life maybe. And, you know, which artist doesn't want to be appreciated, doesn't to share his work, that's why we create. I think one percent of artists doesn't care. So do something and keep it. I think a very minor, maybe a few. But, you now, this is the essence of art. You make it and you share it. And you want it to be also appreciated. But Atlas, now we can see that because he's 11 now, he has been creating for enjoyment, for playing and enjoying. That's very different, I think. I hope he is not going to change, but he will change. The system is very strong.
Speaker 2 [00:43:29] That's interesting. But this is pure creativity, what he's doing.
Tolgahan Çoğulu [00:43:33] In my opinion, yes, because creating for full enjoyment, for not sharing. But now as you ask me and as I'm brainstorming, maybe I'm creating and my main motivation is for sharing. Of course, and maybe also make myself happy, of course, selfish instincts, but always share it as well. Don't keep it to yourself. So everything is... Together. So it's weird, but that's it.
