full interview_nathalie joachim_2.mp4
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:00] I just finished my first workshop for a new piece that I'm writing for the vocal group Room Full of Teeth.
Speaker 2 [00:00:07] So tell us about the process, tell us what happened.
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:11] It was a really interesting time because, I mean, at this phase of writing a piece, most of it is just concepts in my mind. So I do as much as I can to translate those concepts onto the page, but to also leave space for experimentation, space for happy accidents to happen, and as a way to really begin to explore, especially in this case with voices, the instruments that I'm working with. I personally like to work really collaboratively, so I almost never like to come to a workshop like this with something fully formed. Everything I presented the group with is pretty nebulous and leaves a lot of room for exploration, which I think is really great, but to some extent I do obviously have kind of a clear idea of the concept of the piece, what I'm thinking of, and I want to achieve for the listener ultimately. But this is a really huge first step towards beginning to shape it into something that is also musically fun to perform, showcases all of their capability as performers and artists and also just brings us together into the same creative space.
Speaker 2 [00:01:28] So was this, this was like in your head and then today something new happened?
Nathalie Joachim [00:01:35] Yeah, I mean, I came with as kind of, you know, composing is funny because you're trying to create a sonic map for people. I think you pretty clearly, it reveals to you when they look at what came out, you know, what about what you translated from your mind isn't actually clear to them. What can be clearer and even ways to shift what you have interpreted one way. Which is really great and you know I think I get them as close on the map to the destination but also sometimes we totally change course and some of that happened today too which was exciting. What I pictured in my mind for one of the movements of the piece wasn't quite coming together in the way that I had hoped and then when I left it open for experimentation with they actually presented me with a very different sonic picture of what it could be. But does actually help me sort of align myself with something quite interesting that they presented to me, which I think is, again, a happy accident in this case and allows me to shape one of the movements in a new way and really bring a new color to the work that I hadn't been envisioning myself.
Speaker 2 [00:02:49] So how is it different composing for instruments, composing from voice?
Nathalie Joachim [00:02:54] Voices are my favorite, mostly because it's, you know, a voice is like a fingerprint. Everybody's is unique. And so unlike, you now, I'll take the flute as an example, I'm a flutist, and so a flute is amazing. I've played the flute for decades of my life. I would consider myself an expert at playing that instrument. And even though, of course, every player has their own nuance, the instrument does have its limitations in terms of what's possible. Range is a good example. I can only play down to a specific note and up to a specific note, and that's just how the instrument is built. And unless I make the tube longer or shorter, that's just what you're going to get. A voice is quite different. Even if you have two sopranos, let's say, their personal range can be quite different, the strengths in their range can be also quite different the colors and textures that they're to accomplish within that range are quite different. It really isn't as easy as saying, oh, I can sing down to a low A and up to a high G. It really is about sort of their individual, you know, so much of their life and so much their DNA is in their voice. So it really is such a beautiful and personal instrument. And I think in this case also kind of the difference between writing for chorus, for example, where you're really trying to unify a group of voices into one color and one shape. You're able in this smaller vocal ensemble to really work with eight individual voices and bring out the magic of each of them, which I think is really great.
Speaker 2 [00:04:28] Fantastic. The piece, at least what we heard today, seems to sort of straddle a line between what we think of as music and what we might say is sound. How do you see those two things? Are they different or are they all the same?
Nathalie Joachim [00:04:43] I think it's all music, which I think is really great. But yeah, especially right now in the way that I'm writing, I'm playing a lot with texture. And, you know, you hear them sometimes just breathing, which is a part of vocal production. But it allows me to really sort of focus in on just that. What does that sound like? What does it sound like when a sound, a vocal sound is not particularly pitched in the we that we think, even in the that we speak? It is rather pitched the way that people speak, but it's not sung, you know? And so there is a lot, I think, within a voice that can be explored, which is really beautiful. And even in just articulation, what does it sound like when they just, when they change the vowel? What does it tell sound like when they changed the consonant that they're working with? You get lots of little sounds in between. So all of it to me is music and all of that, I think especially with a group of exceptionally talented vocalists like this, All of it. Can come into play in a really amazing and musical way.
Speaker 2 [00:05:45] If all of it is music, can you describe the feeling when you know it clicks or when you know that it's right as opposed to wrong?
Nathalie Joachim [00:05:57] I think, I mean, I don't know if there is necessarily a wrong, right? I think that there is a shape that I as a composer am aiming for in my mind, and some of the things that they offer don't fit into that shape, which might mean considering a new shape. And so that doesn't feel like a mistake happened, it feels actually like it offered a new opportunity. And in that way, I don't think there is any version of it that is wrong. Most of it just comes down to making a choice that creates an overall sonic picture that I think really works together. You see that all the time in visual art. Maybe mixing these two colors became a color that you didn't expect. But in fact, mixing them created a beautiful color. And so why not use it? So, I don't know, there's some beauty in this way of composing collaboratively that allows for you to take what feels like, oh, that doesn't sound like something I might like, and then think creatively about how to make it into something that you do like.
Speaker 2 [00:07:06] So what part of the creative process do you most enjoy?
Nathalie Joachim [00:07:12] Oh. Maybe this phase right now, maybe this like exploration phase is a great part of the creative process of course because to me today was all about play. What is possible even and like here are some games to offer but maybe some new games will come out of it. I also love obviously the end result, what comes out of this. And I think that's exciting for the performers too, to go from a day like today where it is somewhat unclear, you know, where the piece might land ultimately in concert. But finally getting to that place, I think, allows them to become invested in the journey of the piece, which is really my favorite thing about all of it is that I... I don't like composing alone. I could probably do that, but I think what's really great is that having the ensemble involved in this very early stage of the creative process allows for them to also have an investment in the final result, and so that feels great.
Speaker 2 [00:08:18] And generally, because obviously you're creative in many fields, what's the part that you struggle with?
Nathalie Joachim [00:08:26] I know. I mean, I struggle with all kinds of things. I think, you know, there comes a point where probably the thing that's the hardest is sort of like not becoming too precious about any of the material. And I think that my creative process is always pushing me to be really open to what's presented to me. That can be hard if you do actually start from a place of like, I really want this to work specifically in this way. We're artists, so we're sensitive about what we do, and it can be tough to become less precious about your work. And I think that that is a challenge, but also one that I welcome, and also teaches me to be a more open person overall.
Speaker 2 [00:09:13] That feeds into a question that we ask everybody, all the creative people we talk to. When you're actually done with whatever work you're working on, and you know it's going out into the world, how do you feel at that moment?
Nathalie Joachim [00:09:26] Terrified. When I have a work that is going out into the world, I always feel ever so slightly terrified because in the end, I do love all of the pieces, even the bad ones, and some of them are bad. Some of them are exceptionally good. Some are close to what I hope they would be, but maybe could be more. But, you know, time makes you have to walk away from them. But I think you're always just a little bit scared because so much of what we do as artists is about. Engaging with audiences, engaging with performers. And so it isn't, I think I'm most nervous because it isn't just about my personal satisfaction with the work. It's more about the community's satisfaction with the works. Do the performers feel satisfied in standing on stage and feeling like they can really present something that they are proud of? Do audiences leave truly engaged and with plenty of questions in their mind and does it stick with them in a way that is fruitful to them? So I think I'm always just hoping that everyone gets something valuable out of it. I, of course, always get something valuable out of that, but that can be, it's terrifying to carry that kind of responsibility, I think.
Speaker 2 [00:10:38] What I think we find as filmmakers is that you can make a film and as soon as you show it to the audience, you have a different experience of something that's been super familiar to you. So that must happen a lot with musical performances. This house loves it. This house is a little chilly about it.
Nathalie Joachim [00:10:54] It is, it definitely is, you know. I think what's always true is that people, the things that are so valuable to me about The Worker, this is my favorite moment of the piece. You always find that audiences in different places that you go, you know, some random part of the piece might resonate with them. Like, I really loved, you know, this massive crescendo that happened. And I, you now, for me sometimes it's like, oh, I never. I never really thought about that, but there's beauty in that too, that having somebody else's ears on something that you have sat with in a very specific way, putting it in a different room allows you to look at it from a different angle as well.
Speaker 2 [00:11:35] We know you take being an educator very seriously. What's it like to work with kids who presumably don't come in with any expectations, nor do they have any pretensions, and they just have their own opinions as 10th graders and 10th-graders? Just talk about that. What's that like?
Nathalie Joachim [00:11:53] I really love working with kids because I think it's a beautiful reminder that we all once had these really rich imaginations. We lose that a little bit over time as we get older and kind of bog down with responsibility that kids don't have. So they're able to really just take what you offer them and take the world at face value and offer you something in return, which I think is really amazing. I think My dynamic with them or the thing that I actually like to do in working with kids is always to really shift the dynamic of me being a person that they have to learn from. I find that I'm always learning a lot from them and that when you offer them an opportunity to really have ownership over their own education and ownership over the work that you are trying to create with them, or trying to learn with them. Or teach to them. They also become more invested in it. And so a lot of really creative options become available to you. A lot of new operat- In a lot, in a lot of ways it's, you know, it's just like this this creative process here with room full of teeth. You know, I come with an idea, but I'm also quite open to what anyone else might offer me. Are you guys? Don't worry about it, don't worry. Okay, okay, okay. Okay, so yeah, I mean I love that about them. They almost always take work in a new direction. And I do think that for me, my compositional spirit was actually ignited by my grandmother, who was not a musician herself, but was somebody who offered space for musical play for me in my early childhood. And so I love working with kids for that reason, because even kids who have never had a music class before. Or who have never engaged in a musical space or don't play an instrument or don't plan to or don have a musical bone in their body also always have something amazing to offer into the space. They can also be quite amazing at working collaboratively together if you allow them space to do that. I do find that more often than not, they choose to support one another when they're invested in a common goal. And so. For creativity, that's amazing. It's really great to foster that kind of environment. And my hope in working with them is that it allows that to trickle into other spaces in their life early on. Creative thinking, no matter how you use it, everybody knows that music, of course, is highly beneficial. That's been proven in lots of different studies for lots of reasons. But I also hope that it does make them more creative citizens and thinkers in the world too.
Speaker 2 [00:14:36] So we told you we were doing about art and science and creativity, and you said that's not what I think about science. Let's talk about that.
Nathalie Joachim [00:14:43] No, I think I meant, when I think of science, all I see is question marks in my brain. And so the thought that, you know, the process is the same, I guess I could see that, but it's astonishing to me. In the same way, though, that, as a musician, seeing a dancer interpret music. In a way that I never would is also quite fascinating to me. Not something that I could do, also something that brings a lot of question marks to my mind, like how is this even possible, but fascinating to see. And you know, of course, that is, there are more, for me, more clear alignments with the processes there. I love interdisciplinary collaboration for that reason. Almost everything that I do is about failure, and I do try to tell students that as well, you know. The failing part is where you're learning the most. And, I mean, I think that that was true today in this workshop, that some of the things that I presented didn't quite work. But it offered me a chance to try something else, and I think that that's really great. I think as a composer and as a performer, I find that, you know, failing is the moment where I'm learning the most. And I do try, the main reason I try to tell students that is because I think it can look, when you're looking at, You know, here's this performing artist who has an international career and is totally successful and their life looks amazing and perfect and they just get to live wonderfully every day. I think it's so important to remember that there is, you know, much more failure, I think, in all of our histories than success. And success is what people see, but failure I think is where it's at for me. I think that it's important. A life without failures is one without growth I think.
Speaker 2 [00:16:38] Beautiful. Very well said. This is a question that I completely ought to look at. Do you think that math plays any part in what you do? Is there any sort of a mathematical... In your head, it's to some degree. You can answer your question. Yes.
Nathalie Joachim [00:16:53] Yes. Math is, I hope my high school math teachers are watching. I think of course music is related to math. I'm particularly attached to rhythm and in a really specific way in a lot of my work. The last moment that we were working on in today's workshop was all about a rhythm that basically continues to truncate it's in it's It's arrhythmic in its nature. It starts arrhythmically. Or I should say, it's an irregular rhythm that continues to truncate itself until it comes down to nothing. And the whole thing is a mathematical process that then continues to repeat itself. And what I wanted to do in that sense was try to create the pieces all related to time. So. And our relationship with time. And so I really wanted to create something that feels actually quite the way time feels for us. Very regular, but irregular. There are moments in our memory that are seen like massively long moments, and there are some that seem to speed up. Time seems to be always shifting in our understanding of it. The way that when you were a kid, summer vacation felt like years, and suddenly we're at September end. I don't even know where June went, you know, and so I wanted to create something that was sort of very regular but irregular at the same time. And for me, rhythmically, that was entirely a math process and I don't know that I'm always thinking of it specifically as a mathematical process, but it certainly is and so many patterns in music are related to math and I think are part of our understanding of it too.
full interview_nathalie joachim_4.mp3
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:00] My name is Nathalie Joachim, and I am a performer and composer.
Speaker 2 [00:00:05] So we saw you almost a year ago.
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:09] That's true.
Speaker 2 [00:00:10] So what have you been up to?
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:15] Since you last saw me, I have been doing quite a bit. The world opened up, and so it's back to performing and touring in a major way. Of course, composing lots of new music for everything from small ensembles to orchestras. And I was recently appointed an assistant professor at Princeton University. So I'll be starting there in the fall. That's a big development since then, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 [00:00:45] So, when you're constantly on the move, it seems that you are, is that a creative zone? Are you like always feeling creative or is it one of those things where you're too busy and you need to sort of step back and take a moment and get into your creative, get your creative juices going?
Nathalie Joachim [00:01:05] Am I always feeling creative? No, I don't think so. But am I always seeking creative inspiration? Yes, definitely. It can be really hard on the road, you know, and you're not always in your sort of, your creative space where you know creative things have happened successfully before. But also, life continues and deadlines continue, so you still have to keep practicing and keep writing and. So I'm always seeking creative inspiration everywhere that I am and not every day of composing looks the same. I think that some days of composing can look like seeking creative inspiration elsewhere, right? And so that counts to me as a day of composes, going for a long walk to clear my mind and think about my artistic practice and process counts as a of composing also. And so that, I think, is maybe the biggest constant.
Speaker 3 [00:02:10] Do you want to do a sound check? Yeah, I feel like, I'm not sure how much rubbing or extra noise you, like that's your primary audio, so if you like, I am not, I am... Are you hearing rubbing? A little, but I'm sure what your challenges are. Okay, just give me a second, I want to point back. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 [00:08:40] Okay.
Speaker 2 [00:08:42] I'm going to have to go back. I mean, we have it on the camera, but I'd like to get it. So I'm gonna go back a little bit. OK. Tell us about what you're going to be bringing to them in August.
Nathalie Joachim [00:08:59] What I've been working on for Roomful of Teeth has been developing a score, right? And the score is essentially a map of the concept, right, it's a way for me to communicate to them in as much detail as possible while also leaving some space for them to infuse their own individuality and creativity. Um how I would like for the piece to come together sonically. Uh it's just a model, it's what I have uh conceived of since I last saw them, and but like any other model or map it will require adjusting once I once I get there. It doesn't exactly realize itself in... The way that I envision it in my mind or in my ear, but when you're dealing with real people, obviously a lot of that can change. And so I'm really looking forward to allowing them to dig into that and to gather the information that I will get from that to really finalize the score, to say like, okay, this is, these are things that need adjusting. This really works. This. Totally doesn't work, and being able to get to a final place. But we'll be, by the time I see Room Full of Teeth again, we'll, I hope, in what feels like a sort of final, close to final stage of realizing the work.
Speaker 2 [00:10:24] And now tell us what you said about voice, because that was great.
Nathalie Joachim [00:10:27] For me, the voice is an incredible sort of phenomenon, right? As an instrument, it's truly unique because there are no two voices that are the same. Everybody's voice is like a fingerprint, right, and so I love working with voices, and I think that quality kind of changes. It's interesting. And so... Earlier this season I was working on a new piece for St. Louis Symphony and they're in unison chorus which is about a hundred and twenty voice choir and a hundred and twenty voices in some way has the ability to come together or sort of unify in a way that eight voices like Room Full of Peace do not, right? The beauty of eight voices is that you really get the strength of the individuality of the voices. And that you can work with the fact that you don't want them to conform necessarily to one another and that's a strength. It's a definite strength, but it also just shows the power of the voice, right? It's kind of amazing. You would think that it was easier to get eight voices to blend than to get a hundred voices to blend and in fact, it's the opposite.
Speaker 2 [00:11:40] So this brings me to the aid voices. They're very different. How do you build for that? How do your condoms work?
Nathalie Joachim [00:11:48] How do you accommodate eight different voices? I mean, it's a joy. It doesn't feel like an accommodation. It feels like a gift, right? It feels really incredible to have eight people who are exceptionally adept at vocal production, right, that they each have a skillset that is unique. I'll never forget, you know, my very first workshop with them wasn't about actually writing at all. Um, it was about learning about their voices. That would, that happened virtually, um, sometime before last August. And that was, that was revealing in such an amazing way. Like some of them can do throat singing. Some of them have like incredible ranges, can sing really, really high or really, really low. And each of the voices has their own color. And that tells you a lot, you know, in terms of your palette. That's all I'm ever thinking about, of course, as a composer when you're, them. Thinking about how sounds can come together, you need to understand like what colors can I work with, what's possible, what sounds am I averse to working with and what sounds might be fun to push my own practice in a different direction, right? And so I think of it as just such a gift and they are of course immensely talented and can do, I would say, much more than the average voice. So it's kind of, it's amazing to build something for them. And for me, compositionally and creatively, I lean into that. I just, instead of leaning away from their individuality, I think the trick is to not hide them, but to showcase them.
Speaker 2 [00:13:29] But so, okay, so if you were composing something for, you know, instruments, you could, with your magical machines here, you can say, I want to make a flute sound, I wanna make a cello, I wanted to do a viola, okay. How do you compose for Esther Lee? How do compose for Cameron? How does he compose for Stan or Eliza? How you, they're not here. You can't say, Sam, try going and hitting a guy so you're a lousy. But tell us about that problem.
Nathalie Joachim [00:13:59] Yeah, I mean, obviously it's, working with instruments in many ways is so much easier, right, because, because of the limitations of the instruments, right? As a flutist, I know I can't play below a certain note, I can play above a certain note, these are the timbres of certain registers, and this is kind of what a flute sounds like. And what you get across the flute spectrum are people who can make those sounds really well, and people who make them less good, you know, but there's a sort of... There's this basic understanding that probably 80 percent of people that play this piece will sound like this in this register or this range, right? Voices are of course quite different because even if you have similar voice types or similar voice ranges, you have a different human being standing in front of you. So writing for them is in one way freeing because it allows you future. Remove the constraints of what the instruments are, right? I think of myself as like a piccolo player. People often write for piccolo in the same way, right, especially in an orchestral setting, it's very high and can pierce through things, so you always hear it in loud moments, and in fact, the instrument itself has lots of rich colors otherwise. It's just that people say, oh it's a piccolo so you write for it like this, right. And in some way, that becomes the limitation for the repertoire, it becomes a limitation for the instrument itself because people, I think especially for younger instruments, like not that the flute is a young instrument, but if you think of other woodwind and brass instruments, the repertoire is somewhat limited because they say like, oh, a tuba can only do this. And that's maybe not true, maybe just people haven't spent enough time exploring what is possible, right? Um, a voice. Doesn't give you that limitation. And in some way, that's kind of freeing because you can try a lot, right? And it's only until the human is in front of you that you realize if what you have conceived is possible. And so in some ways, I think compositionally, it's a little bit freeing. I can give another example. I recently wrote a piece for two guitars, and I've never played guitar. I don't know very much about guitar at all. And I remember meeting with the duo, a duo called Duo Noir, and they gave me tons of resources. Like, here are all these books and scores and literature on all these ways to write for guitar. And the truth is that most of the people who write through guitar are guitarists themselves. The vast majority of their repertoire is written not by non-guitarists. And one of the things that they said to me in my initial meeting with them was, you know, we can give you all of these resources, but we're really excited about you not having the constraints of knowing what's possible on the instrument. So we want you to just write freely, and then we can work with you to make it feel more idiomatic and understand, you now, like, we'll re-voice some things or this is something that would feel more comfortable for us to do but their experience has been that people kind of write for them more creatively and freely because they're not hindered by the limitations of like their specific understanding of what the instrument can do. So for me in writing for Room Full of Teeth, I understand that I have eight sort of Maserati voices, right? Like eight instruments that can do probably much more even and then what I'm asking them to do. And that's what I'm inviting myself to do in my writing process, just to go beyond what I think might be a limitation or what might be limitation in my own voice that doesn't relate to their voice. And so, you know, that maybe is like the one benefit I have as a vocalist myself. I understand like what causes discomfort over time, what feels good, how breathing works, you now. And so there are some things that I understand. Maybe more inherently than other composers might, but I do think that with those particular voices, I'm not even aware of all the power that's behind them and so I'm trying to push myself into a space where I am in fact encouraged by that sort of level of naivete and like what can you do, right? And being able to push yourself to that limit and that's what August will be about, getting together with them. In a room for them to say, ah, you pushed it too far, or this could work, but maybe it works better this way. And it's that kind of insight that I'm seeking. It allows me to be not so about my process and to also dream big. Ah, try not to capture any of my stress. What do I need to do before I show up next month? I have so much to do yet still on their piece, right? I think the way that my timelines have been working lately, it's been nice that I've been able to take a long time with pieces, but there's often, for me, a big push at the very end, to kind of, again, prepare the maps, sort of cull together all of the disparate pieces of what I've thinking of. Reminding myself of what there was at the beginning actually and also what my initial, you know, just reminding myself my initial creative instincts in working with them to infuse some of that back into the work because some of that gets lost along the way as you begin to sculpt away at it. And I kind of like the, I like being reminded of like the beginning seeds of the work in a specific way. So I'm always sort of searching to bring those back if I can. But I've got kind of a big list to do. I still have one big section of the work that I have yet to really figure out that I think is gonna gel together. Couple other sections that I feel are solid in their standing, but have to be brought together and have yet do that. And so I've gotta about a month left to do that work. And it seems like no time, but a month in composing time is actually quite a bit of time.
Speaker 2 [00:20:09] So we interviewed them a few months ago, and they said, oh, this is what the piece is about. This is what Natalie said she wants the piece about. OK, and that was news to us. So do you have an idea of what the pieces about?
Nathalie Joachim [00:20:22] I'm curious to know what they said. For me, the piece is about our relationship with time, which of course has become so, so interesting to be thinking about particularly in this historic moment of time. But it's something that we are, you know, originally they had asked me to create a piece about weddings and I don't know very much about weddings in that I've never been married. I've been to weddings. They're not my favorite thing. I can't say I've ever been to a wedding where I felt like deeply inspired though I was like happy for the people getting married and so I abstracted that idea into something that we are wed to and time was a thing that I really felt is something that we are inherently connected to and have, you know, growing and developing and complicated relationships with, right? And so that was my interpretation, my wedding interpretation, and it's true, you know, it's a relationship that... You know, in its, in it's nascent can be so fresh and, and invigorating. You think of being a child that summer vacation seems like a lifetime, right? Those three months when you're not in school feels like they could go on forever and always. And you think of yourself as an adult where five years feels like it happens in a blink, right. And so. There are times when we are frustrated by our relationship with time, not having quite enough time to accomplish all we all we need, not knowing how much time we even have, not utilizing all the time that we that we have available to us. Right. And so it's a complicated relationship that ebbs and flows like every other relationship. Sometimes you're in good standing. Sometimes you really not. And you feel the pressure of that. And so. That's what the piece itself explores, not only in terms of the text, but definitely in terms of the structure of the work itself. It has me working with time specifically in a multitude of ways throughout the piece that I think is quite interesting and hopefully fun.
Speaker 2 [00:23:02] And you're going to be there for three half days, is my understanding. I think so. That's a big goal. I don't know if it's morning or afternoon, but you'll have three days. What do you expect that Thursday afternoon? What do expect to be?
Nathalie Joachim [00:23:18] There it is the first day.
Speaker 2 [00:23:19] No, Thursday, Thursday? I know, I know. Trust me.
Nathalie Joachim [00:23:25] Trust me, I know that today, today only.
Speaker 2 [00:23:28] That's what serious people do, they have somebody who says, you gotta be here at 9 o'clock.
Nathalie Joachim [00:23:35] What do I expect? On the last day, you know, I think that I expect for the piece to have legs, you know, for it to really feel like a thing that then can be handed to them and can begin to grow with them, right? I like to think of my handing over of a score as the beginning of a work, And I think that that for me and my practice is something quite different, right? I think. Um, often, especially like in music, which I think is like unique in the performing arts because I don't think that dance or theater necessarily work this way. Um, I once worked with a choreographer who said, yeah, the premiere is just the beginning of the work and so much of the pressure of music is that the premier is like, the... Is the sort of quintessential moment of the birth of the work and that this is what it stands like in the in for the rest of its lifetime in the world right which is silly to think it's completely silly to thank and if you're lucky enough to work with ensemble to perform your works many times you see that the piece grows hopefully far beyond what you hoped in that time once you of pass off at the time. I know myself as a performer, even writing music I write and perform myself, that you get this version of it and then a year of touring turns it into something else, making a record out of it turns it in to something else and that the piece hopefully is growing with you as it goes on. I think that's also true, you know, of lots of like folk music, you My album from the A.T. Is centered around Haitian folkloric music, much of which has been around for hundreds of years. People have been singing some of these songs for centuries. And someone asked me, you know, like, what do you think Haitian people think about you taking these traditional songs and turning them into something else? And I said, I think that they probably are excited that I'm keeping the music alive, right? The second that a piece of music calcifies, to me, it dies, right. In Haitian culture, so much of our history has been passed on through our music and has been critical to our survival, to our preservation of our story and of our stories. And the retelling of them, the internalizing of them has been actually what's caused them to survive for centuries. So I think that, in fact, I'm doing exactly what I'm trying to do right now, and the original makers of the song intended, right? It's breathing new life in a new way for those stories to be continued to, you know, carry on for many more generations hopefully. So I like to, I would like to think that my sort of passing off of the score to Room Full of Teeth on that final day is going to be the beginning of the life of a work that I hope is going continue to grow on and off of the page from that moment.
Speaker 2 [00:26:37] That's fantastic. Yeah, it's interesting because we swung as a visual artist. They say, my work has potential until it's done. And then they get depressed. When it's up on the wall of a gallery, it's like, is there any more potential? It's there. It's kind of locked in. You're telling me it's a very interesting contrast. Because that's the only way we're going to film. I mean, I'm happy it's gone, but it's always a little bit of a, I can't do any more fixes. Yeah. And you know, it goes back. Yeah. So, no, that's fantastic. You mentioned, I'm glad you brought up the Haiti and the work that you did, because tell us about, like, how did you become this musical polymath? I mean, was your family really musical? Just tell us a little bit about your personal background.
Nathalie Joachim [00:27:25] Music is such a big part of Haitian culture. It's such a big part who we are. Much of that is tied to the fact that our history, our spirituality, is our storytelling is wrapped up in our musical practice, right? For us, it's central to our cultural understanding, our way of social engagement with one another. And so much of that is very seriously tied to our survival, right? It's true that so much, you know, when you hear the story of Buak'aima, which in Haiti was the Vodou ceremony that was said to have ignited the Haitian Revolution, it was a spiritual ceremony that had a lot of music tied up into it. When you think of a lot of Haitian folkloric songs, much like the Negro spiritual in America, so many of those songs contained hidden messages that were important messages to be carried through that helped incite the revolution. It's serious for us. Music is really very serious for us, it's something that we take seriously. It is also something that we find quite a bit of joy in. I always laugh because my family in Haiti is often like, you know, do you have a job? And I'm like, yeah, I have a jobs, I'm a musician. And they're like, yeah, but everybody's a musician, I make music, you make music we all make music. Everybody's like, how are you, how did you have a job, how do you pay for yours? And I was like, no, guys, people pay me to make music it's a real thing. And they laugh about it because they think it's ridiculous that, you know somehow that has become my occupation and in fact. You know, like, it's like a thing that feels bizarre for someone to be focused on as not occupation instead of a way of life, right? And so it's a funny thing to explain to them, but I always say that, you know, my original music teacher was my grandmother, who, you now, so much of our time together was spent making music with one another. Sitting in her yard in Haiti, and when she would visit me here and visit our family here in the States, and she lived with us here for a little while also, and, you know, while she was cooking and cleaning, and there was little me following her around, and the thing that she always encouraged me to do was to share my story with her through song. And she would do the same. She would tell me about things that happened to her or teach me songs that she'd known her whole life. And I don't think that I knew at the time that she was bringing me into this cultural practice. And maybe she didn't think of it so explicitly that way either, was just a way of life and was also how she was brought up, right? And so it was an amazing, beautiful introduction to music in my life. Before I realized that it would become my life, right? And so I like to credit her for that. And, you know, I think that it's a beautiful thing, and I'm often reminding myself of what it felt like, how pure that feeling was to be able to be encouraged, to be expressive, to express myself wholly and honestly. And often what happens in the training of music is that that honesty, that purity kind of can get overlooked and I'm constantly reminding myself of her teachings always. It might be the cleaning people, might just be my neighbor, but I guess that I never really qualified their repertoire as atonal. I think that's also, I think it's a distinction that's within the music world and then in the sort of general understanding of listening. I think that most people conflate dissonance with atonality, which I think is, you know, two very different things and two different, very different understandings of concept. But it doesn't concern me at all, you know? I just, I don't really attach myself to tonality in that way. I am really invested in in creating harmonic worlds in every piece that I write, and that's certainly what I'm doing for them. But I don't see it as a, I don't even consider it, I would say, in my writing, not for them or for anybody else.
Speaker 2 [00:32:18] That actually brings up, so the art of harmony is one of the kind of leitmotifs that run through our series, you know, harmony architecturally and all that sort of Harmony in music, which I was going to say for later, but Michael will talk about it now, is that What does harmony mean to you?
Nathalie Joachim [00:32:36] Uh, what's this harmony?
Speaker 2 [00:32:37] Well, you just said that you were trying to create this sort of harmonic situation. Yeah. Whether it involves distance or not. Is it different from distance? Just opine a little bit about the concept of harmony, if you would.
Nathalie Joachim [00:32:49] Yeah. I mean, harmony for me is mostly about color. Not that I have synesthesia in any way or not literal color, but I think that anytime that I am considering how any number of tones relate to any number other tones around them, I'm most often seeking a color, right? It's true that, you know, some harmonies. Sound extremely bright, some of them sound extremely dark, you know, some of them do feel unsettled and some of them feel warm, and so that's what I'm always seeking when I think of harmony is about color.
Speaker 2 [00:33:35] So dissonance, is dissonant an opposite of harmony or is disonance a part of harmony?
Nathalie Joachim [00:33:39] I would consider dissonance a part of harmony, for sure. And it's often an interesting thing that I'm seeking to infuse. I think that, obviously, if you're thinking of popular music or top 40, you don't hear a lot of dissonances in those settings. I do find it really interesting when there is just, like, what happens that you have, you introduce a note of dissonance and what happens to the color as a result of that is always quite interesting to me. The concept of harmony, I'm always curious actually about how it relates to, how it relates scientifically or how it's explained scientifically to be really honest with you because what is it exactly that makes us perceive something as Um, happy or sad or warm or, or cold or dissonant or, or icky, you know, like what are, what is it about that that does tend to have, you know like a somewhat universal response, I think for the vast majority of people, like when you hear something that isn't a major. Tonality that is centered in major harmony, most people perceive that as happy, right? You play a play a major third and people are like, that feels like, sounds like happy. That answer is universal whether you ask a four-year-old or a 90-year old, right, or if you play, you know, like an augmented force that people are like, That makes me feel uncomfortable, right. What about it exactly does that scientifically in our brain? Like, what is it that it triggers for us? I would love to know more about. I don't know quite enough about it, but it does mean that it's a world that you can live in for a very long time, right? You can actually take, you know, I think with most, obviously musicians know this, but most lay people don't that you can actually the same chord and re-voice it, right, like make it so that the notes are happening in different order. And you do really perceive those as different color, right? You don't actually, they don't sound the same if you're rearranging the voicing. And so often what we're thinking about in orchestration is like, are we achieving a voicing that is giving us the color that we desire? And sometimes that doesn't require a change in harmony. It only requires a change of voicing, so. I am the type of person that really sort of agonizes over that because I spend a lot of time really deeply listening to each of the colors and understanding what about it actually like helps me feel more settled in it or helps me want to lean into it a little bit more and so it's a kind of fascinating concept.
Speaker 2 [00:36:27] We're fascinated by this whole idea, I forget who first mentioned it to us, but this whole idea that sound waves traveling through the air hits your ear and can make you cry. It's sort of like, what's going on? And it's fascinating, as you said, to figure out, you know, figure out the, you know, but it does happen. Yeah.
Nathalie Joachim [00:36:50] Yeah, and I'm sure that some scientist somewhere has figured out why it happens, you know, physiologically why it happened, or how it happened. And I'm fascinated by that. And it's clear that people are studying it, it's useful for so many reasons, right? If you think of film scores. Films without score are of course quite a different experience than films with score and often what people are experiencing in a moment is related to the music that's happening around the narrative moment right and so it works it does help to sort of like manipulate your viewer or manipulate the listener into feeling a specific way about something and so there is something about the ecology of it. I'm sure there's something about the physiology about it too and so I don't know anything about it. I'm no scientist, but I have no idea.
Speaker 2 [00:37:48] But you're a listener, do you have anything you cry at that always makes you cry when you hear it?
Nathalie Joachim [00:37:54] Oh yes, so many things. I mean, so, so many things, it's hard to list just one, you know, but of course there are pieces that just, uh, pull at your heart in a way that is inexplicable and it's, it, it An achievement, I mean, I think when you write something like that yourself, it is a great achievement to see that in other people. Oftentimes, I, mean, for me, when I am inside of my own work, what is valuable to me or what makes me emotional about it is not actually what translates to other people at all. You know, the things that I'm sort of most attached to in my own, work are often the things better. Really overlooked by other people, and so there is something magical about a moment in which you have been able to achieve that for yourself, that I feel something specific and that actually the audience feels exactly that same thing. Not to say, you know, I think there's also a tremendous amount of value in what they hear that I don't, right? You know, or what they latch on to that I do. That's also valuable to me. It's the thing that... You know, I think when I'm sitting in the audience for a premiere of my own work, the thing that I'm actually doing in the moment of the performance is sort of looking around the room to see what grabs them, which is not always what grabs me, you know, in the movement of the work or what I think people are going to gravitate to. And that's fascinating to me. It's also a great way to observe people.
Speaker 2 [00:39:30] What about beauty? Do you strive for your work to be beautiful? And what is the, I mean, obviously, different definitions of beauty. I'm just curious.
Nathalie Joachim [00:39:41] I don't know that I would say that it's a specific aspiration of mine to necessarily be creating something. Beautiful by any sort of conventional standard, right? And in fact, you know, it's so subjective. I've written, I have written pieces that I find beauty in that other people have not, you know? And I think that that's, you now, that's an interesting point of difference between creator and consumer or observer. So, I don't think that I'm, I think if I spent my time chasing... What beauty sounds like. I'd be chasing all kinds of things because what it is for each individual is something quite different, right? I have a friend who can't stand the sound of a harmonica, just can't take it. It's like nails on a chalkboard, really like physical reaction, just a sound that they can't take at all. I also have a friend who's a composer who often creates colors and textures that are reminiscent of a harmonica in their work or even has players creating the textures on their acoustic instruments while also bringing in harmonicas into their work and I find it to be So, so beautiful. And so. It's how do you chase that, right? Like, how do write for the one person in the world who just cannot stand the sound of Aramanica, who like can't listen to Stevie Wonder because they can't take it. You know what I mean? Like something that so much of the world finds so beautiful. So I don't think that you can, you know, I don't concern myself with chasing that because you'd be chasing your tail all day long. And so I think more than beauty, I am always searching for honesty in the work, you know? And so. And some of that is going to be beautiful, and some of it isn't. But the thing that I know that I can stand behind is a sort of honesty and expression in my intention in the work, and that I'm really always chasing.
Speaker 2 [00:42:00] I'm going to change topics here, and then other people are going to weigh in. But we're very interested in the combination of technology and art. So what's your relationship with technology as a composer? Not that you write on a computer, but how do you use it in the product that you compose? Where are you on the spectrum of...
Nathalie Joachim [00:42:27] I consider myself pretty on the high end of tech in terms of the spectrum of bringing it into my artistic practice. Much of my work is electroacoustic and also, you know, a lot of my my work now is about sort of incorporating what are known as sort of electronic processes using only acoustic instruments, right? Um, you know, particularly right now I'm working on my next album, which is really centered in sampling. And I've written a handful of chamber works that bring that into play, um, as well. And so, uh, I, and also I, you know, I'm just, uh I was a New York city kid who kind of grew up at a time where, uh there was tons of amazing electronic music, you know, like Bjork was one of my first. Sort of Bjork and Pamela Z, or sort of my first two quintessential, sort of like, oh my gosh, this is a person I could be, I could have a life like this. It was sort of two women who were icons for me, and still are, you know? And so, yeah, so much of that is infused into my work. I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm of course a member of a group called Fluetronics, where we really fundamentally, since our founding, have been mixing acoustic and electronic sound, and so that's a sort of signature of mine, I would say, pretty deeply in my work. I'm not reliant on it, but it's definitely something that interests me quite deeply and is a part of the fabric of my creative. I guess my sort of sonic soundtrack of life in some way.
Speaker 2 [00:44:22] I mean, your work is, yes, you use electronics, but you're, it's very rooted in voices and instruments, it seems to me, in the very old-fashioned way.
Speaker 5 [00:44:31] Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 [00:44:32] But you're trying to basically bring it into the up-to-date as it were.
Nathalie Joachim [00:44:37] I mean, yeah, I think that I think I am just interested in sound period, you know, like whatever that means, obviously, you know, some some of my work involves spoken text, some of my work involve acoustic instruments or acoustic instrumentalists engaging as vocalists in ways that they might not normally. A lot of my work involves recording of acoustic sounds and transforming them into something that sounds otherworldly, right? And so I don't know that it's rooted in one space or another. I think I'm just engaging with the sounds that I'm drawn to and what stories they can Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 [00:45:26] Would you consider using AI in your work at all, or what do you know about that? What do you think about that.
Nathalie Joachim [00:45:32] I don't know anything about AI. I don't know anything at all about AI, I don't know, I'm not opposed to it. I have never been approached to use AI in my work and I wouldn't know where to begin, but I wouldn't consider it a limitation or something that's off the table.
Speaker 6 [00:46:01] It's okay if you don't know anything about AI, but the general concept of like, you know, GarageBand has a button you can press that will fill out your drum track. Where do you land on the computer doing it for you versus you injecting the human element and that balance?
Nathalie Joachim [00:46:18] Um, well, I guess, you know, I would say that we're in this moment now. Uh, as you might be able to see on the screen behind me, there's a music notation software and, um, it uses MIDI, right? It translates, uh, a computer blip into an acoustic sound, um and, or an electronic sound that attempts to simulate an acoustic. And for a very long time MIDI was like the most horrifying thing you could possibly hear, right? There have been vast improvements in that and even, you know, when you get into like Hollywood, for example, they can recreate what sounds like the New York Philharmonic using computers only, which of course is just like terrifying as a musician. You're like, are these computers going to replace this? And so many of them now are so realistic sounding and in fact they've sampled some of the best concert halls or sampled this person's specific sound on their cello or violin and that's the sound that's actually used to create this real life-like reinterpretation or performance of a work. I think that it's interesting. I think it's obviously has this... Well, it has all kinds of, you know, we could talk about for a long time how, you know, like that has a lot of implications socially, economically, um, and I, I do think that it's something that can be debatable, debatably useful and debatable, uh, destructive in some ways as well. Uh, I hope that our intention as a human race is not to replace ourselves in every and any way. I know that what is true is that my... Experience of my grandmother's voice sitting underneath a mango tree in her yard could never ever ever be recreated by a machine, right? And so I hope we're not working our way towards a world in which that is disregarded as something that is no longer useful to us because I think it would be unfortunate for us all. So there's that.
Speaker 2 [00:48:35] Amen. That was really good. I have a couple questions.
Speaker 6 [00:48:42] So sort of both on around the idea of inspiration. So when you talk about these tools, your MIDI peripherals, your software, are you finding a new tool? And that tool could be eight incredible voices as well. And thank God, I could do this, I can do that. Or do you wake up and say, I'm making it about time. What do I use to make that happen? What's the chicken and the egg in this?
Nathalie Joachim [00:49:08] Oh gosh, which comes first, like the concept or the tools with which I can create the concept? I think no two pieces are the same, I will say. I, when working with voices, that's sort of like maybe the only place I have a sort of hard limit that I really have a hard, hard time creating without the specific voices in mind. And not just voice type, but the person themselves, right? The person even beyond their singing, right, like who is the human who's connected to all of the affect of this. That is, that's a place where I sort of, the voice has to come first for me, my next album is really rooted in this exploration of the voice as... Not only an instrument but something that's connected to our DNA in so much that it carries within it, people have come before us, right? That in fact, our DNA being specific to us and being something that has helped to produce the voices that we have available to us is something that carries all of the traumas before it, all of the joys before it. All of the ways that we have been able to live and create, you know, like my family comes from an agricultural community, how they live their daily lives shaped so much of their DNA, how my how my body is built, what my skin looks like, how it responds to my environment, right, and my voice is tied up in that and so voices are maybe the only place where I draw sort of hard line, like I need to know the voice before I can write the piece. In every other scenario, I think it sort of depends, you know, on the piece itself. Sometimes I am really inspired by a concept that I'm really aiming towards. Um, sometimes I am inspired by the story of the people for whom I'm writing. Um, and I, I don't consider anything off the table as sort of starting point. And I allow all of those pieces to inform, um, each other throughout the process.
Speaker 6 [00:51:29] I have just one question sort of related to that around inspiration, sort of, I think most working artists, you probably agree, don't have the luxury of waiting for that piece of news or that strike of inspiration to kind of run and write that song in 15 minutes, sometimes you've got to go to work. So how do you drum that up? What is your way of fighting that, I guess you call it writer's block or just, how do get through that sludge of starting?
Nathalie Joachim [00:51:58] Um, starting a piece is sometimes easier than others. Um, but I consider my practice to be, you know, a practice is called that just for that reason, right? Uh, and so often when I'm feeling creatively uninspired, the thing that I need to do is just create. Sometimes you have to allow yourself to do that. Without any expectation and that's actually the beauty of a practice that you're just going to allow for space for yourself to create. And it might all be trash, right, but it's just the practice of doing that allows you to be able to access that sort of creative insight more easily and more adeptly as you go through time. And so every single day of my artistic practice, especially as someone who is. Not only a composer, but a performer and an educator, right? Like my artistic practice looks different every single day, but I am always engaging in it, right. Someone asked me recently if I practice every day. I know my flute is, oh, maybe you can't see my flute or you can, okay. I won't talk about my flute. You're welcome. Maybe. Um. Someone asked me recently if I practice my instrument every day, and my answer was no, not necessarily. I practice it, of course, when I'm preparing for something or, you know, if I am really just feeling this sort of inspiration to dive deep into my instrument on any particular day. Um, but my creative practice is something that I'm engaging in every day, whether that's writing, whether that listening, whether that's playing or, or singing or performing. And so, um, I, that is the thing that I am most attached with. And I think that is a thing that also, uh, keeps, keeps the sludge of like, maybe not being, being the most creatively inspired in any given day or moment or working through that. That's actually what keeps me going. In. That I also, you know, empower myself to understand that each of those things is actually a piece of my creative practice, right? If I'm feeling particularly uninspired, it might be that reading a book for an hour is the thing that I need to kind of get me going, Right. It might be that. Taking a long walk and observing all of the sounds around me is the thing that gets me creatively inspired. And I count that as part of my artistic practice, right? It doesn't look like work or a job, and certainly my family in Haiti believes that that process and that practice is debatable. But I do think it's important, I do think it is important to my practice. And so for me, it's critical to be engaging in my creative practice every single day, in even the smallest of ways. And that's how you develop a practice. When you have... Young students who are just starting to play their instruments you always tell them you know like even if you just practice for five minutes every day you'll start to see progress right and I think that that's true in creative practice that you have to it is something you do have to learn how to engage in and access and also just forgive yourself we're not aiming for perfection every It makes timelines difficult, it makes the realities of living, being a living being in the world and having to deal with your life outside of your creative practice challenging at times also, but it really is about being committed to the practice and it's easier to do when it's something that you love.
Speaker 7 [00:55:40] So, we are doing a story about acoustics. We filmed at Symphony Hall in Boston with Lita Kang, who was the first violinist, and she talked about her relationship to that space, the orchestra's relationship to the space, as being very special about the bounce from the walls, et cetera. How is it for you? Do you have favorite spaces where you work? Do you? Feel the acoustics of the space from one place to another, one part of your practice to another.
Nathalie Joachim [00:56:21] Acoustics are amazingly important, I think, of course, for my performative practice, that usually the first thing that I'm doing when I go into any hall is figuring out how it responds to me in that space, right? And so, and having to be adept at sort of learning that very quickly, like what does this space feel like? What does it sound like? What does is require of me as a performer? I am more and more being invited to think about acoustics in my compositional work. Right now I'm working on a new piece that's being commissioned by Yale for their Schwarzman Center, which has been sort of remodeled and renovated as a performance space. And so I'm creating a site-specific work in the top of the Schwarzmen Center, which is a dome, which is. An acoustic challenge, to say the least. And I'm creating an electroacoustic work in that space. So understanding how the, you know, when you have a space that's like insanely resonant, that every single sound becomes massive, right? Even the quietest, most gentle of sounds. How to write something, how to construct something that responds to that space and doesn't hide its. Acoustic challenges, but in fact, highlights them, right? And so what that that is has been a fun thing. And most of my creative process for that piece has been about putting my own body in this space and understanding how sounds respond in there and testing that out. And so that has really interesting. You're almost always thinking about acoustics, of course, when you're balancing work, right? Like, how many string players do you need in an orchestra to balance against this wind section or what you're writing? Like, you're always thinking about that a lot in terms of balancing a sort of acoustic body of the work itself, right, particularly in larger ensembles. It's something to think about, but you're you're mixing instruments with different timbers or how they will respond to each other in the space, right? And so, and how to write adeptly for that is always something that you're thinking about acoustically. But yeah, it's like, you know, it, it it's always a consideration to a varying degree to, you, know, in the case of this piece that's been commissioned by Yale, it is a big sort of centerpiece of the work. Um, and in the case of a, you know, a small chamber work or an orchestral work, you're, you're always thinking of, um, thinking of that and, and also responding to it, right? You can, you can shape that all you want. Uh, and when you get into a hall with an orchestra, um you realize that because of the hall itself, right, you might have been thinking of the orchestra and you might've even heard them perform, but then you hear your own work in that hall and you realize like, oh wow, I really needed to. Adjust the dynamics or adjust the size of the string section or bring it, you know, like try to bring some colors out more that are getting lost in this space. I recently did a show at the National Gallery in Washington, D.C. And performed in kind of a sort of like arboretum space, like an echo chamber, you, know, and to perform electroacoustic work in that space is a challenge in and of itself. The sound check itself was a challenge. It's also sort of, you're sort of shooting in the dark, right, because the second that you fill that space with hundreds of bodies, which are incredibly absorbative material, right? Like suddenly, like bodies will dead in a space in a way that is somewhat unpredictable. You don't know how many people are gonna come. You don't know exactly how they're gonna be seated. Like is this front section gonna be full? Is it gonna be everybody in the back? And so it changes. The acoustic of the space little so sometimes you're it's a it's a game that you're sort of going around. It can also change how you're hearing on stage very, very intensely, especially in a case like that. So it's something that comes up often, for sure. I also recently did a piece with an orchestra whose whose hall has one of those like Myers acoustic sound systems, which I think is supposed to help the hall Like. Changed the sound of the hall from its own natural acoustic, which is, who knows what it sounds like, to something that is artificial, right? So when you're sitting in the audience, you're really hearing a balancing that is artificial. That was a challenge for me as a composer, because actually I walked away from the premiere of that work, not entirely understanding what the piece sounds like. Right? What does it sound like in a space that hasn't been modified? I don't really know. And so much of the adjustments that we were making, I think, was a result of this sort of like, this is what the orchestra should sound like, in this hall, which is a little different than how I conceived of the work itself. So it comes up more often than not. And I think also with some of these, some of the acoustic enhancements that are happening to a lot of the spaces that work in, it becomes, it can become challenging because of course... You know, the way a human ear hears is very complex. You know, it is really like hearing is a complex, a really complex function of the body, you know? And so it is something that is more than a notion, especially when, as a composer, all that we're doing is. Conceptual right like everything that you're you're working on is conceptual until it's happening in real time and You're you making your best guess at The most successful conception of that thing, but it's almost never perfect right and so it's a challenge
Speaker 7 [01:02:37] How has the technology you're working with now changed your work in the beginning, when you first started out, were you using electronic bits and pieces to write? How has it changed things for you?
Nathalie Joachim [01:02:55] I mean, my relationship with technology in my work is one that has been there from the beginning. My very first pieces were electroacoustic works, mostly for flute and electronics, also early works for cello and electronics. And so, you know, and that was sort of how I began experimenting. It's funny, you, know, it's like, I remember that that was, it was at that point in time that you were, people were just getting these, like, you know their power book g4s or whatever that had garage band built into them and like um you know i i came up through learn a lot of my sort of like early experience composing um was heavily influenced by the dj scene in new york city and a lot of dj's at that time were using a program called reason that was where i first started doing a lot of electronic programming, which is not, I think, the normal route at all for many classical musicians and composers. And so, I have had a long relationship. And, you know, it comes and goes. You know, it's funny that as the technology changes, I kind of go with the Every tool that I use, I think of as an instrument, right? That I can learn in as deep a way as I've learned about my flute or my own voice, or in a surface a way as I learn. I don't know, the recorder or something, right? Which everybody played in third grade once or twice, right. Yeah, so, and so it's, I'm excited by that. I think the tools are of course, as technology improves becoming more and more powerful and are capable of much more than you could possibly use them for. I think that the thing that you see often, that I see anyway as an educator, is that you get young composers who are like excited by the notion of electronics. And so you get these electronic, early electronic pieces where they're like... 40 million sounds. It just like sounds so great. They just like threw all of the ingredients in and the piece is way too much going on and most of it is just because like it could do this. So I added it in. I found it. I pressed this button one time and it could this. I threw that in and I really like to, in my own work and my own practice and for sure as an educator, I like to encourage people to limit themselves, to give themselves one aspect of the tool. And to see how far they can stretch that one sound. Like what can you make this one aspect or this one component of any electronic software or hardware instrument do, right? And learn how to do that very well. It's almost always much more effective in the work. I think for me, limitation is an incredibly creative tool. I like to work within limitation in my own work. And so. Uh, I like to encourage people to step away from all the bells and whistles. It's like, you think of, you know, if you have a piano in a public square, right? A kid will walk up to it and hit every single note. And sometimes it's about just like, what if I only played these five notes? Could I make something interesting out of that? Right. And more often than not, you can, of course you can. You can make something quite interesting out one note. Right. And so that kind of, uh, limitation, I think is, is a powerful thing to infuse into my own practice. For sure a part of my pedagogical philosophy.
Speaker 2 [01:06:31] So with Teeth, I mean, they use electronics, obviously, they use various amplifications, but they're about the voice. They're about something that's internal, it's like so basic and fundamental, and it really is moving and affecting. And I don't know, I get a pleasure of just realizing, there's sort of a simplicity, even though it's very complicated. I don't know if that appeals to you in terms of writing for them.
Nathalie Joachim [01:06:58] Oh gosh, but I don't consider the voice to be simple at all. It's sometimes the most complex thing. And I think that's totally true in the world, right? Sometimes the most complex concepts are the most simple of them, right, ones that sort of fundamentally work in a specific way but are able to achieve so much, right as a result. And so I never hear or I don't think I've ever encountered a voice and thought, oh, so simple, you know. I see such rich possibility there and that's the most exciting kind of instrument to work with I think. Well I guess I think that what I, in working with them, I think the thing that I always try to do is just remind myself of the very first conversations around the work. And then to look at what's in front of me and see if it still retains some notion of that. Not necessarily in any sort of particular amount of specificity, but I like to think that, I like know that I'm retaining some of this sort of initial seed of whatever the ask was or whatever inspired me about. The piece in and of itself. And so, you know, that the very first conversations that I think that we had were about weddings. And I think my initial reaction was obviously being sort of like Not averse, but not excited, necessarily. Or, and not even not excited. Just not connected to the idea. And I know they told me like a very beautiful story about penguins mating or something. Like completely, it was just like not. Didn't get me there. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about the abstraction of that. And I also have the piece itself is kind of structured in these pairs of solos, if you will. And that came from the first real virtual workshop we had in which I was learning about their voices and mostly was learning what they like to sing, what are their favorite pieces that they love to sing. What are things that people never write for them that they wish people would write for them? Things like that. And I remember taking a lot of sort of anecdotal notes about their, you know, little funny things that they mentioned about themselves. Like, this is the thing that I'm known to do in the group, but actually, like, my favorite piece is this thing that nobody would think about, and so that's probably what I will spend a lot of time going back to for them. Um are the sort of quirky things that they've probably forgotten that they told me at this point and hoping that I'm still getting a little piece of what everybody sort of told me of themselves or requested about their sort of affect in music so
Speaker 2 [01:10:20] Now you've got me, now you've put an idea in my head, so can you tell us who said that and what they said?
Nathalie Joachim [01:10:25] I probably do have a list of who said, who said...
Speaker 2 [01:10:31] About to say that, oh, this is what I'm famous for, but I don't, this is what i really want to do.
Nathalie Joachim [01:10:35] Uh yes oh there's so many notes right uh Yeah, these are funny notes. Deshaun, he has a big bel canto romantic voice and he loves Baroque music. Deshawn and Cameron are two of the lower voices in the group and they get a lot of drones because they're, you know, low and mostly act as a support for upper voices. I wrote myself, I really love the naturally buttery nature of his voice, but. Uh, and what they like, uh, Cameron hates falsetto, loves spurt singing in overtones. Um, as a group they love emotional extremes, um, and any emotionally driven tech. Uh, some of them told me some of their favorite pieces to sing. Like, if the last, Esther Lee, if she could sing the last one last song of her life, it would be Knock Still by Barber, and yeah, I don't know, there are funny things here. Martha loves rhythmic singing, but of course, you know, this is, it's a funny thing because their roster sort of changes, right? So these are the people who were in the room at that time. But I think that I will try to sort of still nod at these original conversations that, yeah, crooning. Somebody said they love crooning, and somebody else said that they love heart singing, which I think is so beautiful. So Some of that I will bring back. Into, and I think that my instinct in collecting that information was still thinking about this concept of wedding and just getting into this, getting into their heart spaces a little bit, like what is it that you really love about this, and being able to infuse at least some traditional notion of a wedding back into the work. And so I'll probably go back to that.
Speaker 2 [01:13:09] So being candid, how much, as you get closer to having to show up with your eight miles of riding for their engines revving, how is panic and how much is confidence in terms of getting something ready?
Nathalie Joachim [01:13:25] Uh, I mean, I would say that. Probably shouldn't go on record or segment, so much of my day-to-day life is centered around panic, but, uh...
Speaker 7 [01:13:37] Okay.
Nathalie Joachim [01:13:39] But, I mean, it's mostly excitement. Of course you're scared. I think that, at this point, you're hopeful that most of it will work, you know? I think I just have released myself of, um, I've released myself from being too precious about things that just don't work and also being honest with myself about that is for the better of the work, right? And the great thing about working, you know. In what I feel like is a collaborative way, is that you're relying so deeply on the expertise of these people and their instruments, right? And I think that's true for any instrumentalist, it's especially true for a vocalist, like a person who has known their particular voice since the moment they were birthed into this world, right? And so I think who knows their instrument better than them? Who knows what's possible and what feels good and what feels. Um, you know, right and idiomatic to this instrument and these people. So in this case, I think it's, it's excitement and I'm, I'm not so precious about the work that I am like, you know, I, I mean, I I'm the expert here, which is just like crazy to think. Like I think one of the things that I value the most in being a performer is that I've spent, I've dedicated so much of my life to being. An expert flutist, you know, for let's take that for example that like that is a thing that I know how to do very well and I spent a long time of my life figuring out how to do it exceptionally well and it's something that I know that I know right and I think that performers value when you value that about them that they have really dedicated their lives to their own practice right and so that this is the point at which you lean into that expertise. It just feels. Silly to me to have a room full of experts that you are not relying on or not asking for their input or insight into your own work. It just feels like a silly thing to have a sort of ego over. So, of course, there's some level of panic. You never want to write something that people just hate, you know? And there's that. But I like this idea that some of it, even if challenging, can be, then sort of really can only come into its true being by way of their expertise, so I can't wait. It'll surely be better than what I'm imagining in my mind and what no MIDI instrument could possibly recreate, you know
Speaker 7 [01:16:19] So, Andrew has weighed in with two things that speak to some of our other themes. One is very quickly, people talk a lot about the relationship between music and math, rhythm and math. Do you think about that at all? Ah, man.
Speaker 2 [01:16:41] Can you tell us about math last time when you talked about your math teacher? It's cool watching the show. No, it was wonderful. Is rhythm the idea of there being patterns in the music?
Nathalie Joachim [01:16:57] Always. Yeah, I mean, I'm Haitian. Rhythm is in our blood and our bones, right? I think so it's fascinating to me as an educator especially that you go to a place like Haiti where polyrhythm is, you know, just written into the music. It's who we are. It is in, again, it's like in our blood and in our bones. And you see toddlers who have like such an adept facility with polyrhythm where you could walk into any American classroom, even the most like these are the cream of the crop, next Einstein's of the world, right? And polyrhythym, I know professional musicians who can't handle polyrithm in the same way, because it's not intrinsic to our let our musical language here in the United States, right, it's not like it isn't in the blood and bones of a lot of the music that is born here. So and is not in the blood and bones of our cultural practice of music, which is quite different, right? And so, for me, it's in me, whether I'm leaning into it or not, right, it becomes a part of my self-expression. Most of my work, the vast majority of my works is deeply rhythmic and connects to rhythm in a complex way, and it is something I'm thinking about. Often and intentionally, but it's also something that often just reveals itself unknowingly because of who I am and where I'm from. I didn't really think anything about math, but I talked a lot about rhythm.
Speaker 2 [01:18:34] We talked about math last time. Yeah, no, I'm just... Andy can hear me. I worked with Andy for 50 years. I wish you'd listen to me.
Nathalie Joachim [01:18:47] I think we're good. So let's see. Oh, you needed me to say something about flutronics, you said?
Speaker 2 [01:18:51] Yeah, well, look, we're trying to, you know, I'm trying to imagine how, what you could say, other than... You did already talk about it. Yeah, you talked about playing the flute. Um, but what's it like? Okay, actually, I can just say something.
Nathalie Joachim [01:19:04] It's a collaboration. Yes.
Speaker 2 [01:19:05] Yeah, it's a collaboration, but it's with somebody you've been with a long time, okay? It's a little bit different than, definitely different than teeth, which is a separate, you know, question. So what's that like to have a, sort of a doppelganger or, you know, another person there who you kind of really know and collaborate with? And you could say, I have a group called The Dramas, or however you want to set it up, but that spells with us a lot.
Nathalie Joachim [01:19:29] Yes. So, Flutronix is an ensemble that I co-founded with Alison Loggins-Hall over a decade ago now. And we really, we had the synergy from the beginning. We're quite different people and we're quite different composers. We're definitely different flutists. And we see the world in two very different ways, but collaboratively it was the first relationship for me that allowed me to um, have what was something beyond this sort of feedback loop of myself, right? To have someone else looking at my work and saying, well, what if you arranged it this way? And I was like, oh my gosh, my brain would never do that. But, and I, and we do that for each other still creatively, uh, so often. Um, I now have like, you know, sort of like cohort of, of other composers and artists that I lean into when I need feedback for exactly that reason. And it allowed me to trust in that kind of relationship. And to release myself from this notion that composition has to be this insular, isolated, lonely journey, that in fact you can really benefit from other people taking a look at your work and, you know, you take it or leave it, what insight they offer, but more often than not, you're really receptive because it's a perspective that you just simply would never have dreamt of yourself, right? And establishing that kind of trust, I think, is. Important and I think and I wish was more more prominent in the musical community that we aren't all you know there we aren't like I wouldn't bestowed the title of composer from on high you know I mean I'm a regular person who likes engaging with other people and so it's nice to have that and and with Alison and I to be able to push each other it has that for us especially early on um you know we met our compositional like lives really were birthed out of Flutronix, both of us, and so. Um to come into that kind of space where we were beginning to especially write works that were being performed more prominently and and works that we were co-writing with one another that really having that other perspective in the room at all times pushed our practices right and it forced us outside of well i did this once i'm gonna do it again i'm practice of especially in the beginning because when it works you're like oh I'm just I'm going to keep doing that that that was like a successful thing to do and often you have to be pushed outside of your comfort zone so co-writing with Alison has always pushed me into a space where I'm like I don't want to do that and she's like but we are going to do that and so then you have figure out it gives you a new creative challenge in this space like he or she has put something that I just don't want to be there. And if it were just me, I would take it out. But now there it is. And so how do I make space around it that actually helps it feel like it belongs there and belongs to both of us then, right? And so that feels really great. And it's also just, you know, I'm always telling people to sort of find their people and it's a relationship that's important. You need to have people who can... See you and encourage you to grow, call you on your own stuff every once in a while, and to be a support system for you as you're living a creative life.
full interview_nathalie joachim_5.mp4
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:00] We heard the piece, finally, today for the first time, or what will be the piece I think. It was what I expected, you know, it was funny. I wrote to Cameron when I sent the score. I think you always have a sense as a composer, you're like, this is close, but not quite, so my goal is to get us there before I leave.
Speaker 2 [00:00:25] What was it like, actually, physically, not virtually, physically hearing them and being able to talk to them?
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:32] Oh, so much better, especially just working with voices. It's, for me, impossible to finish the piece without them, right? And so it's what's necessary right now and was a big relief because I had sort of hit that wall in my own process.
Speaker 2 [00:00:49] They also had things to say. Yes. How was your day? It was a good day.
Nathalie Joachim [00:00:57] Performers always have great feedback, you know. I think that's the thing that we rely on, is their expertise about what works, but also their own initial reaction to the work. I think when, you now, like, there was one moment in the piece where we were like, you know, these two bars really don't work. And it was actually two bars that hadn't occurred to me as like, oh, they seemed fine. But now that you mention it, you know, maybe it is something to review and look at again. And I think that kind of feedback is always really something I welcome because when you're living inside of it, inside of your own head, you can be hard to have that kind perspective.
Speaker 2 [00:01:39] It was interesting, as they said, I think you were concerned about the range of their voices. You asked them to do that. They said, oh, we can do everything. And then after about 20 minutes, they said you know, you can do it easier.
Nathalie Joachim [00:01:49] Yeah yeah no but you know I think that's the thing I know that it can be I always let people know that I tried to really be not so precious about the material itself because if you become too rigid in that way then you're really missing out on what I think is like the expertise that you're relying on right that you are counting on. I never think of myself as any more of an expert in this space than anybody else. In fact, I come into this space thinking of myself as like the least, as sort of like, the least valuable, right, in that particular moment, because it's them who know, especially with voices, again, it's they who know their own body and their own instrument and their ensemble better than I ever could. And so all I can do is like conceive of the thing. And then you're really hoping that they let you know what does and doesn't work and what feels good. I also think it just like invites an amazing amount of investment in the work. Like to me, it's the beginning of them taking ownership of the piece themselves and that is always a win for me.
Speaker 2 [00:03:00] So whatever's next, let's have a good tomorrow. I work overnight. Give me a good night.
Nathalie Joachim [00:03:03] Yes, I am. I'm going to try, oh, so I think that between today and tomorrow I will make some changes, you know, look at some of the sections that we haven't, that aren't quite worked out yet and try some of those suggestions that came up today and sort of codify them a little bit so that the piece starts moving or some of these sections start moving a little closer towards what I envision and I think what feels good for them. And so Um, nothing massive, you know what I mean? I think it's a little bit just moving the furniture that's in the room around, um, but not adding any new pieces of furniture. And that's also why I love this part of the process because the ingredients are there. I think now it's just balancing them and also figuring out more effective ways of communicating them because maybe the ingredients aren't there, but the recipe isn't quite laid out in a way that other people can. Interpret it so that's my job between today and tomorrow.
Speaker 2 [00:04:06] When you came off the stage, you went like, I don't know, this wasn't exactly what I thought. Is that right?
Nathalie Joachim [00:04:13] Oh, not that. When I first came off the stage, I think that I was thinking that it was in fact like what I said in my email, which is that it's good, but it's not great, and that it's close, but not quite there, and I think my assessment of that was correct in a lot of it, and so that at least feels like it wasn't totally out of left field of what I thought and the parts that worked. That I thought would work, totally did work, and the parts that didn't don't yet, but they will.
Speaker 2 [00:04:52] Is that typical? Does that typical when these things happen? It's kind of a normal thing.
Nathalie Joachim [00:04:58] Yeah, I mean I think that it is typical that you have a fairly good read on if the piece is going to function in the way that you hope or not. Sometimes you're surprised that that things do work, but for the most part I think your gut tells you what's going to work and your gut also tells you, what's gonna need some zhuzhing, and that's great. I mean, I think the good part about this is that it's happening here and now and that the audience will hear a refined version of that. The scarier part is when that happens in front of the audience and you're like, hmm, well, that just happened in front of 3,000 people, so we'll fix it for the next time. But this is the place for that to happen, so it feels good. Well, we had our final day here and we got a run through of the piece that like now has legs. It's starting to have legs and it feels good, it's feeling like a thing, which feels really great.
Speaker 2 [00:05:59] Yeah, it was really quite wonderful to watch it, all these pieces of suddenly moving.
Nathalie Joachim [00:06:06] Yeah, it's a journey. I think, you know, it was nice when you hear finally a run-through of it to just also be able, like, for me to step out of it and be able to just listen and appreciate the amazing, like performances and the wonder that it is for these performers to pull that together so quickly in, like such a short amount of time. And to know that this is the starting point, that there's like. Now is the moment that the piece starts to become their own, and to be in their own bodies, and to become a part of them as an ensemble. So that's, I'm excited now, because I feel like my work here is done, and now I just have to sit back and enjoy them. Them, enjoy them building their own relationship with the piece.
Speaker 2 [00:06:51] And you just created something, as a creator, you personally, emotionally, what's going on there exactly.
Nathalie Joachim [00:07:00] Guys? Hello? They're filming! Ask me your question again.
Speaker 2 [00:07:13] If you were a painter, I would have said, so the canvas has just been hung in the gallery. How do you feel about it? I'm asking you as a composer, emotionally, what's going on?
Nathalie Joachim [00:07:24] Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it's quite the same as a painting being hung in the gallery because for me, this is the beginning of the life of the piece a little bit, you know? And so I have an excitement about that, you know, about just like putting something out there that you know is going to grow much more from this point. And so, I feel it's satisfying, you know, it's a gratifying feeling also.
Speaker 2 [00:07:52] Is it, so is it worth, is the process, I'm sure it's been ups and downs, I mean, same thing with us, you know, self-down and things like that, is it kind of ups and down to get to this point, and is that dispelled now?
Nathalie Joachim [00:08:05] Yeah, I mean, I think you have, I don't know that I would call the downs, downs. I think it's a, you know, it comes, the emotional ride of it comes in waves, but it I think can only be uphill from here, so that feels really good and I feel great and like to know that we accomplished something together, you now, collectively.
