full interview_engevik sisters_1.mp4
Speaker 1 [00:00:00] So what do you do?
Kristen Engevik [00:00:05] Oh, uh, so what I do is I, well, okay, I don't know how to answer this.
Speaker 1 [00:00:11] Is there, again, is there kind of a collective answer first? There is, I think that we could say that. We've all interviewed you individually. Yeah, but we personally do, so that's always when I think about it. So this is more about kind of the collective clout and individualism.
Kristen Engevik [00:00:26] Well, for the Ingevikism, what I do is I run our socials. Our social media, Instagram. I don't know. I think he's been living for a while. I know. It's art science. I know, I have trouble answering this.
Mindy Engevik [00:00:43] We Engevik sisters try to visualize our science and we incorporate a lot of aspects of art into that to make it the best product going forward. So we're all about art and science and it's very interdependent.
Speaker 1 [00:00:59] So you talk about, you work with gut, guts, okay? Why, what's special about the gut?
Amy Engevik [00:01:07] It does everything. It's called the second brain. It has a lot of different functions.
Speaker 1 [00:01:12] The gut, the gut is called. The gut is the called.
Amy Engevik [00:01:14] The gut is called the second brain. It has a lot of functions. Everyone knows that if you have a GI problem, it severely disables you. It's a difficult thing. It lowers your quality of life. And I think as we're learning more about science, we recognize how interdependent all the organs are and they all link up to each other. So any one of them can control the others. The gut can control brain. There's a gut heart access, a gut liver access, gut lungs. So it's all interrelated and I think studying the gut can really inform how we view human health in general. And it's beautiful. It has the most beautiful architecture.
Mindy Engevik [00:01:48] And it's home to the largest biomass of microbes. Very important.
Speaker 5 [00:01:53] How did you all end up with that? Really quick, sorry to interrupt. Can I just use a battery on the right there?
Mindy Engevik [00:01:59] What should we say about how we ended up in it? Random.
Kristen Engevik [00:02:02] It was by chance.
Mindy Engevik [00:02:04] It's all completely random.
Kristen Engevik [00:02:05] It was very much by chance.
Mindy Engevik [00:02:07] Should we tell the pioneer story?
Kristen Engevik [00:02:09] No, I guess it's because grad school.
Mindy Engevik [00:02:14] Labs separately, individually. Maybe I'll start and be like, you know, I got a job in this lab doing colon. I stayed for my PhD. Then Amy, you can do Yana. Kristen, you can do why you chose the stomach.
Speaker 6 [00:02:26] So that it was random.
Mindy Engevik [00:02:28] It was so random though, I mean, we did not set out to be like, we're gonna study the gut. I know, I'm just saying that aside. So the reason why we all started studying the gut was actually by chance. I started by becoming a research assistant at the University of Cincinnati and the lab I happened to join focused on the colon and I ended up staying there for my PhD and I was having a really good time and I convinced Amy to come do the PhD program with me.
Amy Engevik [00:02:53] So I chose the lab that does gastric stomach, so the stomach. And I think we all were in a department that had a really high concentration of successful GI researchers. So that really is what drew me to the field was my mentor who did stomach, and she was a phenomenal mentor. It was nice having a female mentor. And Kristen chose it.
Kristen Engevik [00:03:14] I chose it based on using microscopes and causing damage to cells and monitoring what happens after cells are damaged and how healthy cells come in and kind of push those damaged cells out so they can maintain a happy monolayer. So definitely the skills was what drew me in and we were studying repair in the stomach as well and I liked it so much I decided to stay on with Mindy and Amy of studying within the GI tract.
Mindy Engevik [00:03:41] So we went from, I did the colon, Kristen and Amy both did stomach, and then we did our post-doctoral fellows, and we diversified. I went and did a little bit of the small intestine and the colon.
Kristen Engevik [00:03:51] I did small intestine and liver and I'm currently doing small intestine and viruses.
Mindy Engevik [00:03:57] So now we have kind of a history of doing different parts of the gastrointestinal tract and they all work together in the body and then we can also work together and have collaborations, which is really nice. Whenever I'm interested in doing stomach stuff, I can talk to Amy and Kristen. Or if you guys are interested in during colon stuff, they can work with me or microbes and it's a great interaction. We work really well together.
Speaker 1 [00:04:16] And at some point the visual part of your practice kicked in.
Mindy Engevik [00:04:21] Yeah early on when we were learning techniques we think we quickly realized that a great way to visualize our science was to be able to show it as a picture and I think that Amy was the first one that really got really good at immunofluorescence and kind of inspired Kristin and I to do more and incorporate that into the stuff that we were doing because we could ask really important questions using a similar technique.
Speaker 1 [00:04:45] If I said, to each of you, define immunofluorescence in like a second. Amy, you go first.
Amy Engevik [00:04:54] Immunofluorescence is the ability.
Speaker 1 [00:04:56] Immunophobe. Immuno. Let's swallow it. Yeah, just because we know about that.
Amy Engevik [00:05:01] Yes, immunofluorescence is the ability to visualize antibodies in tissue or in cells using a microscope. That's my definition, Kristen.
Kristen Engevik [00:05:12] Okay, so my definition of immunofluorescence is kind of reiterating that in that it's a tool in order to visualize cells and how they function under a microscope.
Mindy Engevik [00:05:27] And not to be outdone, immunofluorescence doesn't have to involve an antibody. It can also be a fluorescent tag or a fluorescent sensor. So I think of immunoflorescence as being able to visualize something with a specific tag that then allows you to answer a certain question.
Speaker 7 [00:05:45] With a Microsoft.
Amy Engevik [00:05:49] So the color comes in as the fluorophore. So the fluorescent probe that we use is the color that gets added. And the microscope is really what determines. You add a fluorophores that is in a certain range and that's the excitation state. And when you use a microscope, you use light source to excite that light, that fluorophor and that is what is captured by the microscope, the color.
Mindy Engevik [00:06:14] And then afterwards, we can take the pre-designed colors and go ahead and make them any color that we want. So something that we already had in a red channel, we could change it to make it any color.
Speaker 1 [00:06:26] So you're using artistic techniques. So are you artists on top of being scientists? Just tell us about how those two hats, you wear those two.
Mindy Engevik [00:06:38] We're, I think, dual personalities. We are both scientists and we're both artists at the same time and everything we do incorporates a little bit of both and I think that we're mindful of the visual aspect as well as the scientific aspect and I Think that really makes our science stand them.
Speaker 1 [00:06:55] I think one of you is more visual than the rest.
Amy Engevik [00:06:59] Mindy's the most visual. There's different areas too in science to be more visual presentations and graphical representations or cartoons is really where Mindy shines. I think I do the most immunofluorescence and the most bio-art. And then Kristen does a little bit of everything.
Mindy Engevik [00:07:17] And a lot of live imaging, if you want to use it.
Kristen Engevik [00:07:19] Movies of it.
Speaker 1 [00:07:21] Does that, how does your art, the artistic output, for want of a better word, how does that inform your scientific work and your research?
Kristen Engevik [00:07:31] I think it helps tell a story, because when you can visualize it, it gives a lot more context to what you're doing, and that definitely helps when we are talking to people about what we do. If we can show them, it makes much more sense than just talking about, oh, this is what the intestine is, it's these villi that kind of look like your fingers. It's easier when you actually show them an image, this is what intestine is and study this part of what affects our gods.
Mindy Engevik [00:07:57] I think also too that being able to have diagrams that explain things, people, not all, not everyone is a auditory learner. A lot of people are visual learners. So when you can see it, you tend to, I think, incorporate it more and understand it more and you can say, oh, you're actually talking about that one protein talking to this other protein, which then can go and have these far downstream effects. I think it's easier to understand if you have a context for it. And I think, you know, graphical abstracts and designs and... Immunofluorescence give you that capacity to do that.
Speaker 1 [00:08:30] So are you influenced by artists? Do you go to museums? Do you think about visual art a lot? Does that help you in your practice?
Mindy Engevik [00:08:41] I feel like I see art everywhere. There is some really cool art that kind of reminds me of my cells, the way they spread out and touch each other. I feel I've seen a lot of that recently that really brings me back to my science and the color palettes are often surprising and they're things that I might not have thought of and then I think ooh, I'm gonna try that on my cells. I think that's a really interesting color palette to apply.
Amy Engevik [00:09:04] We all love to travel, too, and I think that has really informed our science and our art. We like museums, and I think when I look through the microscope, a lot of times I think, this looks like a mosaic, or this looks like something I would see in a church, where I can see the stained glass, and it has the same kind of patterns and the same colors, and they are really jewel-toned when you see them on the microscope. So I think definitely having some exposure to a lot different museums, a lot of places around the world that you would see influences that we might not draw from. Otherwise
Kristen Engevik [00:09:34] And I would say immunofluorescence does look so much like stained glass, so I definitely feel more inspired looking at, under the microscope, just the patterns and the tones that you see and then being able to kind of translate that into other color palettes as well with what we do.
Speaker 1 [00:09:50] So is this interest, both of these interests, that come from childhood, or is it something you're new into?
Amy Engevik [00:09:56] We grew up traveling. Our dad was in the Army, so we were born all over the world, I guess. I was born in Germany, Mindy was born in Hawaii, and Kristen was born North Carolina. And so we're exposed. You know, I think I got my first passport when I was seven days old, and we went to Paris. So I think that was ingrained in us. We always traveled as children.
Mindy Engevik [00:10:15] We always visit museums, it was definitely the top priority.
Amy Engevik [00:10:17] Our parents were very into history and so I think that exposed us at a very young age and got us much more interested than we ever would be. I think my dad tells a story when we came back from Paris when Mindy was four. She goes somewhere and she says that's the Venus de Mayo and a lady says how on earth do you know that? She's like it's in the Louver. And you know what three or four year old knows that at such a young young age, and can recite that to some stranger on demand. It's very memorable, That's for sure.
Speaker 1 [00:10:46] What about science? Were you doing like science stuff when you were like six or seven?
Mindy Engevik [00:10:50] Well we were doing science in a way but not necessarily knowing it. We were really interested in rocks at a young age. We loved going out into the woods and into like the we lived in more of a rural area and we'd go we had a little guidebook that told us the types of rocks. So the most exciting rock we found was obsidian. Not that exciting but you know we found a lot of quartz and we thought it was really great to be able to go find something, identify what it was and match it back and then find the properties of that. And then we also grew up with the children's encyclopedia from the 1950s, but they had all these instructions on how to build kites and do all these kind of crafts. And it was really cool and it sparked our imagination. And I think that, you know, through those kind of unconventional, not that we were doing experiments in science, but we were learning about the natural world and gaining curiosity. And that really kind of led us to where we are now where we're still curious and interested and are still pursuing some questions that we wanna know.
Speaker 1 [00:11:42] Tell us about, what are the pleasures of being a scientist?
Amy Engevik [00:11:48] You have a lot of independence. So it's a stressful job and it's a really competitive job in academia, but you have a lotta freedom to do what you want and to really investigate. And I think there's nothing quite like discovery and there's still so much to discover. It's a great feeling, at the end of the day, to walk away and think you know something that maybe no one else in the world knows. And that can really help.
Kristen Engevik [00:12:10] I also think with the challenges, you're constantly learning. So you're always building and kind of learning new skills, whether it's learning how to become a better writer or learning how to better present and create graphics or like improving your skills in microscopy or learning a new, different kind of microscope. Or technology. Or technology in general. New scientific. So your technologies to use. Yeah, you're constantly growing. And I think that's definitely really nice because you can never be stagnant. You're always going to be growing and learning more things.
Mindy Engevik [00:12:42] I think there also is a problem-solving element in that we scientists set out to, you know, ask a certain question, and we fail all the time. Things go wrong, things don't work the way they're supposed to. We have to go back and figure out what to do differently or, you now, figure out what controls to add. And so I really enjoy that. I think it's kind of like making a puzzle. You try to find the right pieces, fit them together, and it's really fun to be able to solve problems. And I just think it is a wonderful job. I really like it.
Speaker 1 [00:13:12] So one of the themes of our series is creativity. And creativity is often attributed to artists. Oh, well, they're creative. We were at this robot lab, and the engineer was brilliant. He said, oh, I'm not creative. Not like you to the woman who was the choreographer. And I think she didn't honor herself in the way she needed to. Is there a different creativity? Can scientists be creative?
Mindy Engevik [00:13:44] I think we're creative all the time.
Amy Engevik [00:13:46] The most creative, the ones that can think outside the box, the one's that problem solve like no one else can. I think the person who invented PCR, the technique that we all use, was incredibly creative. I think that's what drives science forward is creativity.
Mindy Engevik [00:14:00] Yeah, and innovation really comes from asking questions in a unique way and I think that all scientists should be creative and I think that, you know, with the right curiosity and hard work, you know, creativity definitely plays a role in science success.
Kristen Engevik [00:14:14] Plus you have to think on your toes, what is more creative when you're basically improvising every second or planning, but still a lot of it can be improvised.
Mindy Engevik [00:14:24] Something goes wrong, you gotta get creative.
Speaker 1 [00:14:27] So when do you feel the most pain?
Amy Engevik [00:14:30] When we procrastinate.
Speaker 1 [00:14:33] They say not to do it, but.
Amy Engevik [00:14:35] When you procrastinate, you have to be creative because you have a time frame that you have meet these deadlines. So I think Mindy and I were working on a grant and I think we got very creative and I it got much better rapidly because we had a deadline.
Mindy Engevik [00:14:49] In the last few hours, it really came together. That's not necessarily what I think we should tell the world to do, is to procrastinate and not do it until the very end, but you do get very creative.
Kristen Engevik [00:15:01] We're working under pressure to some degree. Like, you know, you get diamonds for pressure. Creativity sometimes really shines during a time of pressure.
Speaker 1 [00:15:11] Different to be creative as an artist versus to be a scientist? Does it feel different?
Amy Engevik [00:15:15] I don't think so. I think it's the same. I think you're using the same part of your brain. I think that it requires the same...
Kristen Engevik [00:15:22] Yeah, creativity between a science, like being doing science and art, I would say very much on the same vein. I wouldn't say there's too much distinguishment between the two.
Speaker 1 [00:15:34] Do you, there's a long tradition of artists who have, whose work has informed science and medicine like going back centuries. Are you conscious of any of that? Of any of those people who come before you?
Mindy Engevik [00:15:49] Obviously Leonardo da Vinci, amazing inventor, creator, painter. I do think that it kind of makes sense though, creating art and then creating science and innovation. I think it really works well together and I understand why there's been this grand tradition of having both merged in the same person because I think they're not distinguishable. I think you can be both artistic and a scientist.
Amy Engevik [00:16:13] I think also a lot of the original, so many painters were anatomists first. They would dissect human bodies to see what the muscles looked like, what the tendons looked like so that they could draw it or sculpt it better. And I think that is, that's pure science right there. You know, we still do anatomy to this day and.
Mindy Engevik [00:16:30] By understanding the world around us it makes you pay attention to details and view it in a certain perspective and then you are portraying that perspective and so I think it's all the same.
Speaker 1 [00:16:41] It's kind of interesting, you know, from Azeleus, is that a name you came up with? I don't know that one or something. I think he was in... Renaissance? He was in the Renaissance, in late 49ers, 50s. Okay. He did all these incredibly detailed anatomical drawings, which of course medicine, the medicine practitioners of the time went, oh, we could use these. Yeah. I mean, usually it goes the other way around where it's science often in technology influenced artists. Yeah, yeah. But it's nice when it goes to the other ways. Oh, sure. Yeah, you seem to be... In both camps, which makes you pretty unique, I would say.
Mindy Engevik [00:17:13] We have a lot of fun with it. I think it's really nice to have a visual output of our work. And I love going into Amy's lab every day and seeing her beautiful villa behind her in her office. And it's fun seeing Kristen having a canvas. We think of it as truly art. We frame it, we put it around our labs, and we like making it. And we think it is great to be able to have data that people can see.
Speaker 8 [00:17:37] How has technology changed that trajectory of artists in forming science? All Leonardo had was pencil.
Mindy Engevik [00:17:52] Although the ancient artists and scientists had more limited techniques, I still think the process is the same. They were viewing what they saw and using what the tools that they had to be able to recreate it. I think that although we have more advanced tools, we're still doing the same thing though. We're still computing what we see and translating it so that other people can understand it and appreciate it. I think it's clearer now, you know, that The charcoal drawings, you know, back in the day had some value, but now that you can actually see it physically in the cell, I think it's an improvement, but ultimately I think the process is actually pretty similar.
Amy Engevik [00:18:28] Informs science and science also informs art. I think some of the original drawings of Kajals and there's so many drawings of people that they did hundreds years ago of cells that they could see under a primitive microscope and now we can look at those exact cells and say they got it right, they actually identified what they thought it was, they looked at the Golgi and we can now visualize the Golgii which they couldn't do it except for rudimentary things. So I think it goes both ways which is really interesting.
Speaker 1 [00:19:00] Sorry, I just have to, we'll lose it. Yes, guys, you should jump in with more questions.
Speaker 8 [00:19:06] So Amy, earlier you were talking about how when you were a little girl, you imagined the scientist was a person alone in a little space. Could you riff on that please?
Amy Engevik [00:19:19] I think as a kid we all had these stereotypes, especially our generation, where you think of an older white gentleman in a lab coat doing experiments by themselves. They were in an ivory tower. And it's interesting now as I'm a scientist myself that I get to go into realms that I never would have thought of. I got to participate in an art exhibit in Bordeaux and I get have canvases of what consider art in my office that I create using high-tech microscopes and a lot of different science techniques, and I think that's really interesting that science can have such diverse paths and can intersect in so many different sections of humanities and art and technology. It's definitely, I think the idea of a scientist is shifting now. We have so much more diversity, which I think is key to creativity. I think it's also nice that there's so many more women coming into the workforce and hopefully improving what the next generation thinks of as role models in science.
Mindy Engevik [00:20:17] Science can only improve with more perspective. She's really important for that. Unfortunately though, I think I fed into Amy's stereotype because in junior high for Halloween, I was a mad scientist and I was definitely a man with shiny hair. And goggles and so I definitely you know fed right into that stereotype of a crazy but as a kid there was
Amy Engevik [00:20:36] But as a kid, there was no Barbie that was even a doctor, let alone a scientist. I think now that we have Barbies being everything, I think it's such a great thing for young kids to have different perspectives of what a scientist could be. It doesn't have to be a white gentleman in a lab. It can be anyone, someone in a wheelchair or someone with a different ethnicity. Science is really a global language, and there's scientists all over the world. And it's a great field because you get to... You get to interact with so many different cultures and so many people, and I think it really does broaden your mind, and that's what art and science are supposed to do. It's supposed to inform and change the way we think about the world.
Speaker 1 [00:21:15] You're working in very specialized, it's specialized.
Kristen Engevik [00:21:18] Yeah.
Speaker 1 [00:21:19] Um. Are you concerned that, I mean, where do you think in 10 years, 20 years, do you think things will move along? What will your contribution be?
Amy Engevik [00:21:32] Hard question. I I hope that in the next 10 to 15 years we'll have very personalized medicine You go into the clinic now with a symptom and you find out you have cancer and we have some of the tools But they're not readily available in the clinic It would be nice to have people go in have their cancer exactly identified Have their cells taken and then treated in the lab to know that you're responsive to this chemotherapy or you won't be you know These cute chemotherapies are incredibly toxic. It's so helpful to know that what you're putting in your body that can literally kill you is actually going to kill the cancer cells or for any number of disorders or genetic problems, I hope that personalized medicine is at the forefront and I think it will be in the next 10 to 15 years as more people are doing it and it's driving the cost down and I research is rapidly advancing. There's a lot of new tools, single cell sequencing, personalized medicine, you can get your genome sequenced, find out what mutations you have, what your risk factors are. So I think personalized medicine will be at the forefront. I think a lot of what we do with intestinal organoids cultures, we do some cancer studies, microbiome. I think those will be some of the important studies and some of important concepts that we'll be moving forward. Mindy will be able to, I think, tailor and personalize your microbiome to help hopefully alleviate disorders that are originating in the gut.
Mindy Engevik [00:22:52] Yeah, I'm waiting for that smart toilet that will tell you what your microbiome is like that day. And maybe you do need to eat that salad instead of that pizza. Or maybe you should have a tailored probiotic that is designed to help address your specific needs based on your genetics. I think it's really exciting. The future is really bright.
Speaker 1 [00:23:10] And your role in it, the three of you, you're a little part of it, is that what it is?
Amy Engevik [00:23:15] We believe that we're contributing to that. I think all of the science community will be contributing.
Kristen Engevik [00:23:21] Yeah, everyone plays their part. It's not that it's just one scientist leading the technology and leading for the next generation. I think it's everyone's works kind of all compiled together to contribute to the greater knowledge and improve our understanding of human health and disease.
Amy Engevik [00:23:38] Each researcher can contribute to the part of the puzzle. We all build on each other by publishing papers that can inform the next lab, or our own lab, or multiple labs to then pursue a different topic or to use that data in a new way that no one else might have done. Yeah, it's exciting to be part of it.
Mindy Engevik [00:23:55] Part of a big community that all has the same vision.
Speaker 9 [00:23:59] Yeah, I got a couple questions, but go ahead.
Speaker 8 [00:24:02] I just want to follow on that. Is collaborating as sisters different than collaborating with some of your other colleagues? Absolutely. So it's a whole sentence. Thank you.
Mindy Engevik [00:24:15] So collaborating with your sisters versus collaborating with other colleagues is different mostly because we can be a little bit more demanding of each other, where I could be like, Amy, I need you to go do this for me. I'll do this. For you. And it's very fluid and easy. Whereas, um, with, depending on the collaborator, it could be more formal, something where you have written agreements and, and deadlines. Um, I know that I can anytime walk into Amy's office and say, I needed this. Which I would not necessarily do with a colleague. So it's the same in the fact that we work together and it's mutually beneficial for us and it is exciting and we're really interested in the data but it's a little different in the level of formality.
Speaker 1 [00:24:58] I think collaboration is kind of essential in the work you do. Absolutely.
Amy Engevik [00:25:02] Absolutely. Collaboration. I think we wouldn't be where we are today without collaborating with each other. We all help each other out. It's a highly competitive field especially for women in science to get to the level. Me and I are both faculty. I think we are you know one of several hundred people that apply for the job so it's one percent that we'll get it and I think alone it's much more difficult that we've all been able to help each through papers or through work, and... Editing grants. Yeah.
Mindy Engevik [00:25:33] Working on projects. It's been instrumental in all of our careers. It's not only just grown our research, it's exponentially expanded what we can do. And so we have multiple papers together and it's bolstered our CV and it builds on top of each other. And it's been great. We call it collaboratory. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 9 [00:25:54] Yeah, I was wondering about the sort of chicken and egg of what you do, whether you say, I want to try and take a bacteria from a lower intestine and make it beautiful, or whether you stumble on something and say maybe this could be something, how does that work?
Amy Engevik [00:26:08] Originally, we stumbled more on things that we thought were beautiful, and it would be part of a scientific experiment that maybe didn't have the data we wanted or the image we wanted, but we'd look at it and say, this is really stunning. I should take some pictures and see what I can do with it. And then it started us on a hunt to find things or using different antibodies and fluorophores to do different colors and combinations in tissue that we knew would be visually appealing. Yeah, it's mixed. Yeah.
Speaker 9 [00:26:38] So just following on that, talking about looking into space and looking into the ocean, but there is a universe inside of us, can you kind of just comment on the kind of wonder of discovering these things and presenting them?
Mindy Engevik [00:26:53] It's a hard prompt.
Amy Engevik [00:26:54] I constantly am amazed when I look at the microscope just to see the symmetry or the amazing, the nuclei is where the DNA is and to look at that and to visually see it and see how perfect it is and how symmetrical and it's just perfectly aligned where it needs to go. You can see it dividing sometimes and it is amazing. I do feel like I am looking into a world like a little aquarium on a slide where I can see so many different life forms if you will, so many cell types all working together in a community. And achieving homeostasis, so helping us to survive and maintenance of our bodies.
Mindy Engevik [00:27:29] Yeah. And at least for like microbes, it's almost like looking at galaxies. You see these communities that are forming that are not all evenly distributed and it's really just beautiful. So Hippocrates was the first to popularize the idea that all diseases start in the gut. And we do believe that to be true. If you have issues with your gut, you often have issues other things and a lot of diseases have been now linked to the gut And so we think that our work is really important because if we can identify how the gut behaves under normal conditions and how it behaves under disease conditions, we can then develop strategies to be able to treat it. And we think in the next 10 years, we really will be able to create those next generation therapeutics that can help patients and help improve their life.
Kristen Engevik [00:28:14] That's perfect. Well said. That's it.
Speaker 1 [00:28:19] So that's why guts are important. Our research is important? Why is immunofluorescence important? Oh, Amy. That's a good question.
Amy Engevik [00:28:29] Immunofluorescence is important because it allows you to see things that you wouldn't. So much of what we do in the lab is protein-protein interactions, it's not visualization, we're measuring things, but to know exactly where things are inside a single cell and how they interact with the other organelles, we have so many different components. You have mitochondria for energy, you have nuclei and DNA. You have an apical membrane, a basolateral one, and these things can all go awry in different states, most classically cancer. And to know where things are and how those are perturbed because even though the protein might not be changing quantitatively, it might be changing location and that could be one of the key signals and you won't know that unless you do immunofluorescence.
Speaker 1 [00:29:11] Okay, so you start to say it, and then you stop. I need you to finish that sentence. Immunofluorescence allows you to see things that you may not otherwise see, right? Oh, yes. So you stop, but I don't want to give you more details, but I need that topic sentence, okay? Immunovorescence. So why is immunofluorecence so important?
Mindy Engevik [00:29:32] Immunofluorescence is important because you can spatially identify where things are. Why don't you just say it? I'm going to have Kristen do it. Why don't you just say it? I'm going to have Kristen do it. She's going to write it.
Speaker 1 [00:29:45] There you go. Again, this is for, you're talking to fifth graders. And this is what I do. And they're going to say, why are you that important? And you're going give them the answer.
Kristen Engevik [00:29:57] Am I giving it? You can give it. Do you not want to give it to me? No, I want you to do it. Okay. Okay. Let me see if I can do this under pressure. All right. Well, immunofluorescence is important because it allows you to visualize where the cells or where things are in the cells and knowing where it is can tell you whether or not it's under like a normal healthy state or if it's in disease. And that is why immunoflorescence is important. Thank you.
Speaker 1 [00:30:22] But it's important, but you're also... I don't think I did it right. It really is about taking this kind of monochromatic output and putting lipstick on it. Do whatever you like. Dulling it up. I think that's just important and I'm imagining while you're talking that we're seeing all of your artistry that you're doing. So I just need that as a basis. We can improve on that. Can you make it better, Mindy? Yeah. Can't realize it without it. OK.
Mindy Engevik [00:30:51] I'll go this time. So immunofluorescence is incredibly important because it allows us to visualize where things are in a cell or interacting with a cell in a way that no other technology can. And by allowing us to put on colors and to be able to make things make sense is really important because if you don't have a visual aspect to it, people aren't gonna remember it, understand it, be drawn to it. So there's a mix of the arts and getting people to be interested in it and that all goes in with the science.
Speaker 1 [00:31:21] You can probably do better. That nailed it. That was super collaboration. That was great. I have one more question. I'm good, yeah.
Speaker 9 [00:31:27] Yeah, so one more question is about education and how we seem to have siloed arts and science, arts and STEM in schooling and just thinking broadly you've all been through a lot of school. How do you feel about the way we teach these things, at least in this country, and how maybe you think it ought to be?
Kristen Engevik [00:31:54] Well, at least what I'm thinking of when I was in high school or the last time I took an art class was in junior high, to be honest. But what I really did appreciate in the classes that my biology teacher did was that they tried to incorporate more drawings so that you could understand how the cells are organized or how they look. And so I think that was really instrumental in me kind of understanding how biology, chemistry works, because if I can draw it out, I understand it far more. So if I have a visual context, and I think sometimes that is easy to lose when you're talking about science because you want it to be very rigorous. You want it be very straightforward when the mitochondria has energy. You don't need to know anything else besides that. It's the power.
Speaker 6 [00:32:42] With a car.
Kristen Engevik [00:32:43] Powerhouse of the cells. I feel like I should not have stalled on that one. But I think that there can be an aspect to it, but sometimes it just depends on the learners as well as the educators of whether or not they're going to incorporate that more into it. Because I think was really helpful for me both in high school and then when I was doing my classes in undergrad and grad school. I found it so much more useful if I could draw out the processes and made it far easier for me to understand and remember. How our cells function.
Mindy Engevik [00:33:14] But I have to say, I don't think the reverse is the case. Our art classes don't seem to be incorporating a lot of the science. And it seems like they draw less on the natural world and on things that are scientific. And I think that that's something that is a failing because they are so interconnected. I think it would be great to have students go and take pictures and do some science and then draw that. And I would think it benefit both science and art at the same time. So I think we should put the A back in instead of the stem, it could be steam.
Speaker 8 [00:33:45] So I have, I think, one last question. Immunofluorescence has become an art form in and of itself. There are competitions, there are prizes, there's stuff. What's that all about?
Amy Engevik [00:33:58] Science is really becoming interdisciplinary across multiple disciplines. We have biophysics, we have bioengineering. I think the next forefront is bio art. I think that scientists are recognizing that there is such an artistic bent in a lot of us. A paper came out with the Nobel Prize winners have a higher incidence of playing piano, speaking other languages, having art as one of the drawing. I think those things all make you a better scientist. And I think that's being more and more recognized and appreciated. And I So many microscopists are so talented. I think we're pretty good, but I think there's some exceptional ones out there that do really amazing work, and I think the general population is starting to take notice, and it's a great thing for science and art.
Mindy Engevik [00:34:39] A lot of companies will have competitions where you can submit your artwork, which is of course your science, and then it can be judged by a panel or by people's choice where people vote on it. I think it's wonderful because it allows the lay public to come and look and see how beautiful the science can be. And it's also great for us because it helps give us our work extra visibility. And then, of course, how wonderful is it to be honored as somebody that has a beautiful immunofluorescence. And so I think it's just a win-win all the way around.
Kristen Engevik [00:35:10] Yeah, and it's just another form of communication of what does science look like, and we do publications and we put our images in there, but for every image that's published there's about 200 or so more that you had but aren't at the same caliber, or you change colors and it was not as visually appealing for a publication, but then you can use that as a science communication tool to be like, this is what I do and this is why it's important and this what your gut looks like, what your stomach looks like. It's just an extra tool to kind of communicate what science looks like.
Mindy Engevik [00:35:44] And immunofluorescence is indiscriminatory. It can stain anything. It can stay in the brain, it can stain muscle, it can stay the gut like we do, the heart. And so it's really fun these competitions highlight kind of the best staining of all the tissues. So it's interesting to see what a beetle looks like or plants fluorescence or obviously what the liver looks like, what the brain looks like. It's really nice to be able to appreciate these other organs in addition to I think the gut being so beautiful. There's so much beauty in everything.
Speaker 8 [00:36:13] So your science is art, and your art is scientific. We think so. It is. Yes. It is.
Kristen Engevik [00:36:18] Yes. We would say that our science is art, and our art is scientific.
Speaker 5 [00:36:26] Can I just throw one thing out there, just to riff on a little bit? Multiple people used the term pre-visualization a little bit ago. There was visualization, but there was also pre- visualization. And it's basically, you know, it's very much, as a photographer, you're pre- visualizing something that might be...
Mindy Engevik [00:36:45] Imagining what it would look like.
Speaker 5 [00:36:46] The David and the Stone. I would imagine when you take that scientific word, hypothesis.
Mindy Engevik [00:36:53] Yeah.
Speaker 5 [00:36:54] As to what might...
Mindy Engevik [00:36:55] Oh, for sure.
Speaker 5 [00:36:57] How does that relate?
Mindy Engevik [00:37:00] So I think a hypothesis is basically pre-visualization. You're predicting what it's gonna look like, where it should be. You have an idea when you go under the microscope what you expect, and sometimes that's the case, and sometimes it's surprising, either for good reasons or for bad reasons. And so I think that you really are in advance when you're planning your experiments, you're visualizing what you think you'll see. And so, I do think that that kind of art part of. Visualizing what your creation is going to look like plays a role in science as well. It was definitely visualized when I put my bacteria together. Oh, I think, you know, they're going to hopefully look like this.
Speaker 8 [00:37:39] So is there anything we haven't covered that any of you want to say? I don't think so. I don't think so!
Amy Engevik [00:37:47] Do you hear it in headlights? We're like, no. Wait, Amy, what was your superpower? Did you get that question? No, I didn't get the question about superpowers.
Speaker 1 [00:37:53] Because, yeah, that didn't show up until later, so...
Mindy Engevik [00:37:57] What are our superpowers, Amy? We can't tell you what we said. Shhh! Kristin.
Speaker 1 [00:38:01] Any superpowers? No. Engavik's sister superpowers. Each one has been granted a superpower. What are those? Oh. What's your superpower?
Amy Engevik [00:38:11] I've got some funny ones. Mindy's is talking. I know. She loves to talk. I do love talking. It's an oldest thing. It is. Totally is. Mindy is... Ideas, really good with scientific ideas. Mine is immunostaining. Very good at immunostain and immunofluorescence. Microscopy, Kristen's a wild card. Good at everything. Yeah. You're really good with social, you're really good with science communication. Kristen's the one who runs the Instagram. She's the ones that I always go to, like, does this post sound stupid? Is this what I should do? How do I use the emojis? She's our, what generation are you? X, Z, Y? No, I'm still.
Kristen Engevik [00:39:01] No, I'm still, I am a millennial like you. You're a millennal. We're all millennials. Are we? I think so. I have to keep being told what I am because I don't remember.
Speaker 1 [00:39:08] She says she's really good at support. Yeah, she is. Oh my goodness, yes.
Amy Engevik [00:39:13] I'm like, Kristin, I need this now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 [00:39:18] You were awesome. All of you. Well, thank you. Each in your own way. Yesterday I didn't know it.
Speaker 7 [00:39:24] You're like, I can see Mindy's personality and Amy's personality. Personality and Amy's personality.
Speaker 5 [00:39:29] It's wonderful. It's really, really good. Yeah, but which one does mom like best?
Kristen Engevik [00:39:33] None of us. I used to be the favorite.
Amy Engevik [00:39:36] I'm the favorite now.
Kristen Engevik [00:39:38] Amy's the favorite now, but our mother really likes to craft and so I was also really in tuned to crafting, especially in high school. So I was the favorite for a while, but Amy's now the favorite. It's a hard life. It is a hard live. Mindy's too similar to my mom. She is too similar slash too independent, so Mindy, you cannot tell Mindy what to do. Mindy will just go for it, and you know, sometimes she gets that from her mother.
Speaker 8 [00:40:05] Thanksgiving dinner at your house must be a good idea.
Mindy Engevik [00:40:08] Well, we talk a lot of science when we're, you know, when we were together. Yeah, it was always fun.
