full interview_angela mack_2.mp4
Angela Mack [00:00:00] I'm Angela Mack, I'm Executive Director of the Gibbs Museum of Art in Charleston, South Carolina.
Speaker 2 [00:00:06] So our series is about art, science, technology, creativity. What is the role of technology in the art? How do you see technology in art?
Angela Mack [00:00:19] Well I think over time technology has played an important role in the arts as have the arts in developing technology. So it's a very two-way street in terms of those two areas, those two potential disciplines. The arts have always been an approach to illustration and to providing examples for scientific development. And scientific development in terms of the mediums that are used, whether it's crayon or oil paint or acrylic, for example, which is much newer, has played a role in how artists can perform their jobs.
Speaker 2 [00:01:08] Can you give us some examples on that last point? Because that's exactly what we think we're doing. We already did something with oil paint. I don't know if you can talk about two-paint and impressionism. Is that something you're familiar with?
Angela Mack [00:01:20] Well, in terms of different styles of painting, certainly there were developments in the mediums that allowed for that kind of work. I think probably the most important one right now are digital works of art and how those are playing out within the art market now. It's fascinating to see how works of are now moving into this new digital phase. Is very much the product of technological development.
Speaker 2 [00:01:55] So talk about that a little bit. What kind of digital work are you talking about?
Angela Mack [00:01:59] Well, they're normally referred to as NFTs, non-fungible objects, and basically they are objects that live on the computer. Our digital age imagery that in some ways is a play off of gaming on the but it is a fascinating process and certainly an interesting development with regards to how the arts are moving into the 21st century and beyond.
Speaker 2 [00:02:34] So we've spent quite a bit of time with artists whose practice involves robots or practice involved in AI. Not so much NFTs, but, you know, like environments which are digitally, you know, sort of enhanced. Especially the ones with robots. What is, does it replace for that in art? Is that going to replace the artist? What's your thinking about that?
Angela Mack [00:02:56] Well, that's an interesting question, and I think that it's too soon to determine where that kind of art is going because basically what you're talking about is a robot that is programmed with a lot of information and then they're sort of set loose in terms of creating something. I think ultimately the human factor has to be there. The creativity aspect of it can never be replaced by a robot, I don't think. And therefore, it'll be interesting to see the interplay with regards to how artists are moving in that direction, but then there are still so many artists who view it as a personal continuation of their creativity.
Speaker 2 [00:03:53] Is it just another tool, is it just simply the latest tool?
Angela Mack [00:03:57] Gimmick.
Speaker 2 [00:03:58] All right. Is it kissy, Kimmy?
Angela Mack [00:04:03] Um, again, I think it's too early to tell. I think what we're seeing now is a lot of experimentation. And can the robot, I guess the question would be this. Can the robot provide something for the creator that they can't do on their own? And does it provide this extension of creativity that is outside of your physical being? So that, to me, that would be the question, because these robots are created by someone, and therefore, what does that mean in terms of their process?
Speaker 2 [00:04:47] Do you feel, or are you in a world where people say, act, it's just kind of a gimmick, it looks cool, but it is gimmick? I mean, that's kind of an interesting perspective.
Angela Mack [00:04:57] Well, I think...
Speaker 2 [00:04:58] We are talking about the orchid.
Angela Mack [00:04:59] Yes, we are. And certainly, there are those people who look at it that way, but I can also see the other point of view in terms of it being an additional tool, just like the paintbrush, just the crayon, just paper products and canvas. I think it depends on how it's used and the purpose of it.
Speaker 2 [00:05:29] We came to Charleston to film the Engavik doctors, and you know what their work is. They're scientists, but they have, they use a new fluorescence in their work. Where does that fit in terms of art? Its function is scientific, I mean, primarily scientific, but it has artistic components. So how does that, how do things like that work in the world of art.
Angela Mack [00:05:54] Well, I think they are very symbiotic in terms of science is art, art is science. Certainly there were times in our history that the two were very closely connected. You couldn't really be a scientist unless you knew how to draw. And therefore learning how to drawing was part of your development and your training. So as time has gone on, however, these two disciplines have become more separated. And what I see now is an interest in they becoming more related again. For example, here at the Gibbs, we have had a long time relationship with our medical university and our hospital employees with regards to something called artful thinking. Where doctors and individuals who are in the medical profession learn how to make stronger observations to improve their diagnostic skills by learning more about how artists see things and how they are trained to observe. So this is an ongoing project that we have had here. As part of our four themes that we focus on at the Gibbs, health and wellness, conservation and the environment, social justice and innovation. So clearly innovation and health and wellness are two of the themes that are most important in this conversation.
Speaker 2 [00:07:33] What could a doctor learn coming from an RBC?
Angela Mack [00:07:36] To see. A doctor can learn how to see, how to observe, how to use their senses to truly understand a work of art. Silent. If those observation skills can be extremely important in helping a doctor understand the whole patient, not necessarily just the thing that they're complaining about, but the whole patient and how they go forward with their treatment.
Speaker 2 [00:08:13] So, give me an example. I'm a doctor. I've come in to show up. I am interested, I am engaged. What do you take me to? How do you make that actually work?
Angela Mack [00:08:21] Well, interestingly enough, we have several doctors associated with the Gibbs who are leading some of these tours. And so they come to it from their perspective as doctors. They also are well-versed in the arts, and particularly the visual arts, and are in a position to provide the students that attend with an understanding of what they're looking for. So, for example, you know, an artist looks at a work of art, and let's just say an oil painting. You know, they construct it from the basic outline all the way through the color process. And that sort of intense observation of a particular work of artwork or what they're trying to create provides this very clear understanding of its construction. So in some ways, can be replaced by the human body and understanding sort of from the inside out what a patient might need.
Speaker 2 [00:09:32] Can you hear me?
Speaker 3 [00:09:34] Are there particular paintings here produced that your mental colleagues gravitate towards, do they, do you know, or where would you send them?
Angela Mack [00:09:55] Well, interestingly, interestingly this whole conversation about health and wellness and how the arts can play into it began with an exhibition we did several years ago by an artist named Jill Hooper who lives here in Charleston and also is based in London. And the work of art that was most challenging for individuals during that show was an image of a woman. Who was nude from the waist up, who had experienced a pretty terrible mastectomy. It was not well done. It was a very difficult image to look at. And it was the work of art, and it belongs actually to the Greenville County Museum of Art, which is here in South Carolina. And it began this conversation of what these works of art can actually tell people. So from that perspective, there is a tendency to look at works of the human figure, obviously. However, we do send people or use pieces that are abstract. We certainly look at works of art that have deep or thick impasto in terms of, you know, the change in the surface. And, and so I can't. Really point out one particular work of art that is better than others because I think they're all valuable in creating this conversation about observation.
Speaker 4 [00:11:34] I'd love to just ask one follow-up question going back to the idea of AI and generative art, because I love your point of view on this. Let's just say you were presented with two pieces, let's say digital art. One made wholly by a person, one by an AI, and it was difficult to distinguish the two. Does that diminish the meaning for you?
Angela Mack [00:11:57] I disagree that it would be difficult to distinguish the two.
Speaker 2 [00:12:01] You can look at me, even though you're trying to be careful.
Angela Mack [00:12:05] Um...
Speaker 2 [00:12:07] You can repeat that. I disagree that it would be different, but you just have to explain what you disagree with.
Angela Mack [00:12:12] I just, well let me see if I can repeat it, but so you said if one was actually made by a live person and the other was an IA.
Speaker 2 [00:12:21] An AI. I assume you know about the AI generating, you can give it a prompt.
Angela Mack [00:12:28] Right. Well, so let me rephrase that then, because there are some objects that you can do that with, and it is very hard. So, oops. Oh right, all right, that's a good idea because then we're really talking about medium, yeah, okay. So the difference, I think it would be, I think there is always a way to determine whether something is created by an individual or by an AI. Whether it's through the medium that's being used, whether it's the the inexactitudes of certain works of art, the depth of the work of art itself. I think, and of course, it's something that art historians and art experts are always looking at because creating duplicates of something is a very important component of the art market. So to that point, I think, you know, until technology possibly gets even better and there is a greater understanding of how AI can be incorporated into art, I'm not sure what we're gonna learn from it at this point.
Speaker 4 [00:14:12] The human connection is so much more important than the point of art.
Angela Mack [00:14:14] Well, you know, the human connection is the point. The human connection IS the point, because creating art is an extension of your mind, of that creative aspect that I think is very difficult to, or at least so far, we haven't seen it evident in a robot.
Speaker 2 [00:14:43] And after all, you know, 1840, when photography came in, there was a similar sort of, like, war.
Angela Mack [00:14:50] Very much so. Yes, photography is an excellent example. You know, what are we doing here? We're using a mechanism to create a work of art. Is it really a work art? Technology again.
Speaker 3 [00:15:08] One other question and one other question, and we've touched on this, but one of our sub things is how technology has always informed art from the beginning and we're seeing that in very different ways today aren't we?
Angela Mack [00:15:25] Well, this past summer we had an opportunity to visit, to take a Gibbs trip to London and we had the chance to go to the Royal Collection at Windsor Castle where we looked at Leonardo da Vinci's incredible drawings. I mean, the wealth of that collection is just unbelievable and many of them were his beautiful... Wave pieces where he was studying water or the constructions that he was doing for military purposes. And here you have works of art that are so incredibly beautiful and yet at the same time in some instances very mundane subject matter or subject matter for war. So to me science and are one and the same. They are. Totally and always linked and will ever be linked in some way or another.
Speaker 3 [00:16:33] So related to that, you mentioned something about your own school. I'm sorry? You mentioned something when we were chatting about your education, about how you at one.
Angela Mack [00:16:48] Well, you're going to get me into trouble for that. Because a lot of academics don't believe that arts and sciences should be, that that sort of general view of arts and science is important anymore. So I'm not sure I want to go down that route. That's true, there is, you know, but that, I mean, unfortunately I feel like that ship has sailed because so much of our education today is based on, you know jobs and rightly so, because it's become so expensive, you want to be able to come out of your education process with a job that. Benefits you and your family and your community. So it's, it's interesting to see where this is going. But at the same time, I do feel that things are being lost. And that's as far as I'm going to go.
Speaker 2 [00:17:55] We've talked a lot to scientists and to engineers and stuff like that, and the scientists particularly say, if I just stay in my science, I don't get any other perspective. That's true. And if I want to solve the problem, I go into the art world. Whatever that is. We have a physicist who plays jazz. He says, that's how I solve my problems. I go play jazz. It gets me thinking about in a different direction. Right. In my little silo, I would.
Angela Mack [00:18:24] Well what I find interesting, because we have a lot of doctors because of the medical university here in Charleston, we have alot of doctors in our community, and how many of them are art collectors. So I always find that very interesting. And they love to talk about their art, and they know it extremely well.
